sqzbxr Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I get it - your posts were perfectly reasonable while mine was out of line. Sure thing, sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Franch Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) I liked Jim's remarks a few posts back. I think he nicely summarized how the discussion, which he originated, advanced his thinking. His conclusions, it seems to me, bring this discussion to an appropriate conclusion. I find that I have benefited from the various views expressed. Although I myself do not have the skill or the interest in advancing the boundaries of the concertina, I enjoy reading of others' engagement with the instrument and what it can do. So, thank you, Jim, for starting this exploration. Some of you will go back to the concertina frontiers. I'm back to working on playing simple melody lines on my EC. Time to push other keys, now. Over and out. Edited March 4, 2014 by Mike Franch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Kruskal Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Well said Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Stein Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) So lets talk about how getting stuck in the preverbial musical rut and self promotion coincide. As a professional musician and performer I spend an inordinant amount of time creating an interest in the concertina, the type of music I play, and me as an artist with something unique to offer the public. In doing so I work tiressly to learn and perform a certain repertoire that reflects my unique style and expertise as musician and performer. Keeping the tunes fresh and inspiring to me and for those who I play is a never ending task. I seek to improve each time I play looking for something in the piece or pushing the boundries of my instrument. In so doing I hope that others will share my enthusiasm. Networking and self promotion is always there in the hopes that someone may hire me to perform at their next function or play with and/or record with their band or orchestra. There is music and there is also the business of music.They go hand in hand. I applaud Jody for his business acumen and his efforts to push the boundires of his music, his recordings and his performance as an artist and promote himself in this endeavor. Its just too bad he doesn't play the EC. rss Edited March 4, 2014 by Randy Stein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) [i get it - your posts were perfectly reasonable while mine was out of line. Sure thing, sport.] no, you don't "get it." you characterized my posts as "a personal attack," and i replied that this was off the mark and stated why. On the other hand, "Sure thing, sport" is sashaying into the territory of the personal or ad hominem. on mr. stein's discussion point, i can't say i have seen a difference in self-promotion needs, aptitudes, or penchant or flair therefor, between explorative artists versus artists working in an established style or vein. a working or performing pro of any kind needs to network or do PR, regardless of whether they are explorers or traditionalists, from what i've seen. i want to say that more explorative artists are more creative in their PR efforts, but i'm not sure i've observed that. some pure roots musicians i've known have just had more flair or aptitude for PR than some boundary-crossing musicians i've known, who have been dismal at PR. and vice versa...or are you saying, there might be differences in how one might approach pr depending on the musical bent? Edited March 4, 2014 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Łukasz Martynowicz Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Taking this thread back to OP question, here are my two cents: Yes, I think that concertina community is stuck in ruts, they are just wider and may not be obvious at a first glance. I'll take Jody's list as an ilustration to my point (nothing personal Jody, it is just great example): Old-time southern fiddle tunes, blues songs, college fraternity and sorority songs from the '50's, tin pan alley and American song book standards, Irish and English session tunes, humorous novelty songs from way back, early country classics from Jimmie Rogers and the Delmore Brothers etc., Playford dance tunes from the 16-18 hundreds, New England contra dance tunes, Scottish pipe tunes, Northumbrian pipe tunes, Quebecois, Shetland, Breton, Basque, Oz, Morris and Sword tunes, Beatles, Dylan and Neil Young... blah, blah, blah, on and on. What is the common denominator of almost everything on this list? It is public domain and decades or even centuries old (I know that Jody and some other players here write their own music sometimes, but usually within a well established, traditional genre). We as humans tend to look at smaller and smaller details as we specialize in something, be it art, science or our musical taste. Trad player will see a huge difference between Breton, Morris or Scandinavian folk, but for someone with entirely different taste or musical background it is all FOLK. In other words - playing scandinavian folk might be "out of the rut" for an english player, Breton may be something new for an american Blue Grass player, but it is still going in circles... OP question was asked in comparison to a melodeon - just another folk instrument, with comparable historical applications. So why not compare with an accordion, which is, no doubt, the most succesfull of all squeezeboxes? And IMHO it is not because it's musical attributes, but because accordionists have adapted to virtually any genre, they are, as a whole, definately not stuck in any ruts. They are folk accordionists, punk accordionists, folkmetal, classic, jazz, pop, disco, experimental, indie, and so on. You name it and there is someone who at least tries to play it on an accordion. Why don't we have something like e.g Dropkick Murphys with a concerina, only acoustic folk bands or purely squezebox ensembles? With amplified music there is really no argument, that concertina is too weak or to quiet. And why there is no one (at least no one I know) who experments with "electryfiyng" a concerina (e.g with vocal pedal effects)? "Our own" Thomas Restoin have posted a cover of Daft Punk today in another thread (https://soundcloud.c...n-1/get-lucky-8) and this is the most "out of the rut" piece I've heard on this forum since I've joined. It may be outside of musical taste of any of us, but it is definately pushing boundaries. And IMHO all that Thomas is doing on his duet is a great example of at least widening the ruts if not entirely geting out of them. I think that Marc G. Lamb may be right: "I have never had an interest in playing these instruments outside of their traditional roles (clarinet for trad, etc.) and I'm no different with the concertina. Some may say that this makes me a stick in the mud, others would call me a traditionalist. I'm guessing that the majority of people that take up the concertina also do so within its traditional context and have little interest in taking it outside of that realm." But is it bad or good to be stuck in ruts is a completely different matter, and this will heavily depend on personal view, and I have no intention to judge that. We just might try to be a little bit more tolerant within our small community. Take a Dirge "taking a break" for example, after his duet was called "a cumbersome heavy tanker" by an Anglo player. Isn't our main goal as players of almost forgotten instrument to spread concertina music in any form and encourage anyone interested in playing it? Regardles of what system and what genres he wants to play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tona Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 OK Lucas, thanks But ma version of "get lucky" is like a joke. No aim to develop any stuff or go out of any rut! Just eventually make smile... The children of my brother like to tease me with my "folk" music.They asked me why I don't play daft punk instead of my "old" music So it was funny (and the first time) to see them by skype dance on music played with concertina... So I posted it in the topic "what modern pop...." because of the title!...Whatever the system, concertina is an incredible instrument with an unique and so rich tone among the large famiiy of free reed instruments. I think that all music can be played on any system.The most important is not the system but the knowledge and the passion we have for this or that style of music, folk or not. History is full of examples of musicians who used their instrument against the current.I think that the clash "new vs old" which we have everywhere should not exist.. Everyone has the inalienable right to like and do what they like and do!... Never any injunctions!...Regarding comparison with accordion, I see two points to note:Without going into historical details, in the 19th century, although at that time Britain is the first world power, it is more the accordion that will emerge in the world because it could immediately be manufactured industrially (concertina is more sophisticated) at a very cheap sale price and at a time when immigratoires movements have become global.The other point (which is related with the first) : I think that the word "accordion" is more "generic" than concertina. Even if we have three main system (anglo, EC, duet), accordion is a broader category of instruments. Indigenous peoples from all countries appropriated accordion from immigrant people to play on their own music and to change sometimes the accordion based on their needs. I think this appropriation has not occured in the same manner for the concertina except perhaps in the case of South Africa.So today, accordion is in very varying forms... Huge russian Bayan for classical music, cajun melodeon, two rows irish system, piano accordion, trikitixa, schrammel, schwyzerörgeli, diatonic "folk" accordion, free bass, stradella... And the great difference is the possibility to change the tone. One, two, three, four voices, sometimes more... Many combinations, flute, bassoon, piccolo, octave, organ,variable vibrato, reed blocks box for jazz... Perhaps this allows accordion to adapt more easily to many different music. (But for instance violin does not need to change its tone whatever the music style... So....)But even with all these possibilities, accordion was an old fashioned and outcast instrument for many years in France, especially chromatic accordion.Young people were ashamed to play accordion. Richard Galliano stopped playing accordion in the eighties because of that... So fashion rules has also its reasons which reason does not know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 As for me it's as simple as that: anyone of us still learning and working on skills and styles can't be regarded as stucking in a rut! Pushing the boundaries is a personal purpose. For me it is currently: playing the blues with an instrument designed for the Victorian parlour..., but I wouldn't call that "innovative", at most "imaginative". Apart from that, what OP Jim might have had in mind regarding tendencies of contemporary melodeonists may have found an answer in pointing at Simon Th., who has that very particular kind of inquisitiveness, which makes his playing so very special, at least to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tona Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Sorry, I realize that I was a bit off the topic. Jim compares concertina to melodeon and not accordion... It is more difficult for me to say something about that... (In France we use the word "accordion" as well as for diatonic and chromatic "accordion". Melodeon is only the one row diatonic accordion. In US or England, melodeon seems to be "our" diatonic accordion, 1 or 2 or 3 rows...) Edited March 4, 2014 by tona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewVanitas Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) (In France we use the word "accordion" as well as for diatonic and chromatic "accordion". Melodeon is only the one row diatonic accordion. In US or England, melodeon seems to be "our" diatonic accordion, 1 or 2 or 3 rows...) It is a confusing bundle of terms. Afaik, the Irish also use "melodeon" (in Gaelic mileoidean) to refer just to the one row, and I believe particularly the 1-row, two bass, with stop knobs on top. The same 4-stop/2-bass/1-row Americans would generally call a "Cajun accordion", though apparently the Cajuns themselves occasionally call it a concertina! "Melodeon" appears to be used for the 2 or 3 row by Americans influenced by British playing (others would just call it a "diatonic button accordion), but I believe some in the Irish-American music scene use the term melodeon just for the 1-row, as done in Ireland. For Americans involved with neither Irish nor Anglo scene, "melodeon" refers to the flat table-like pump organs, approximately what the Europeans call "harmoniums". Of course, in India, "harmonium" refers not to the big foot-pedal instruments, but to the suitcase-sized hand-pumped keyboard organs played sitting on the floor. It's quite the linguistic mess; this is what you get when you base your instruments' names on horribly broad/abstract terms like "melody", "harmony", "concert", "dulcet", etc. Edited March 4, 2014 by MatthewVanitas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcoover Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 So maybe it's not a "rut", but a "groove" that each of us enjoys and is comfortable playing in! Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 So maybe it's not a "rut", but a "groove" that each of us enjoys and is comfortable playing in!I believe pretty much in personal (overall) style and its recognizability... Besides, just a new thought regarding the original post: maybe it is the amazing versatility of our instrument (regardless of the system) which is holding us to playing just the music we like rather than looking for sophistication for its own sake (even though a skilled melodeonist might object). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Sorry, I realize that I was a bit off the topic. Jim compares concertina to melodeon and not accordion... It is more difficult for me to say something about that... (In France we use the word "accordion" as well as for diatonic and chromatic "accordion". Melodeon is only the one row diatonic accordion. In US or England, melodeon seems to be "our" diatonic accordion, 1 or 2 or 3 rows...) But Tona, by being 'off topic' you did explain why most people around the Trad Scene in France have shunned the Chromatic Accordeon in favour of the Diato... a fact that I have found to be strange... now I understand, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 It is a confusing bundle of terms. Afaik, the Irish also use "melodeon" (in Gaelic mileoidean) to refer just to the one row, and I believe particularly the 1-row, two bass, with stop knobs on top. The same 4-stop/2-bass/1-row Americans would generally call a "Cajun accordion", though apparently the Cajuns themselves occasionally call it a concertina! "Melodeon" appears to be used for the 2 or 3 row by Americans influenced by British playing (others would just call it a "diatonic button accordion), but I believe some in the Irish-American music scene use the term melodeon just for the 1-row, as done in Ireland. For Americans involved with neither Irish nor Anglo scene, "melodeon" refers to the flat table-like pump organs, approximately what the Europeans call "harmoniums". Of course, in India, "harmonium" refers not to the big foot-pedal instruments, but to the suitcase-sized hand-pumped keyboard organs played sitting on the floor. It's quite the linguistic mess; this is what you get when you base your instruments' names on horribly broad/abstract terms like "melody", "harmony", "concert", "dulcet", etc. And in the US a melodeon was a early type of reed organ - just to confuse things even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry McGee Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 It's not a rut. We like both kinds of music here. East and West Clare.... Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 It's not a rut. We like both kinds of music here. East and West Clare.... Terry Well yes Terry! We sometimes need to stick in the rut to get properly into a genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) [in France we use the word "accordion" as well as for diatonic and chromatic "accordion". Melodeon is only the one row diatonic accordion. In US or England, melodeon seems to be "our" diatonic accordion, 1 or 2 or 3 rows...)] not in the u.s. we say "accordion" for everything, unless you're clued in to call the one-row a "melodeon". but that's as far as most go over here. i personally began to use "melodeon" in the broader sense, to include bisonoric button boxes of however many rows, after hearing the word used this way from the irish and the uk-ers.... the booklet with the priceless, marvelous three-cd anthology, "planet squeezebox" gives the history of the global dissemination of accordions (unisonoric and bisonoric) much as you have outlined above. [even with all these possibilities, accordion was an old fashioned and outcast instrument for many years in France, especially chromatic accordion.Young people were ashamed to play accordion. Richard Galliano stopped playing accordion in the eighties because of that] this is absolutely the case in the u.s., but substitute PA for CBA. still is the case in some quarters even now. as it was explained to me, this took place after Beatlemania and the British Invasion and the whole rock explosion, dating from the early 1960s, rendered accordion the ultimate Geek Stigmata. i actually own a vintage cobalt-blue piano accordion with black "white keys" and white "sharp and flat keys" that i've been told was briefly featured in the Sears Catalogue in a post-British Invasion effort (unsuccessful) to entice kids and teenagers into thinking the accordion was Hep. I just saw a flaming circus-red one of the same model, also with black "natural" notes and white "sharp and flat" notes, for sale at my accordion tech's.... here is a fascinating youtube clip i stumbled on, with three irish free-reed virtuosos playing: PA, bisonoric button box, and concertina. it's in an otherwise-quiet room, so the individual voices of all three ring out marvelously.....food for thought? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp3bnkGIVxA Edited March 9, 2014 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry McGee Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Seems to confirm what we probably already fear - that "concertina mouth" is indeed most prevalent among players of that instrument. Is it limited to Anglo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now