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Hayden duet that favors flat keys?
JimLucas replied to Aldon Sanders's topic in General Concertina Discussion
If he's confining himself to a 46-button layout, as in your diagram, I agree. On the other hand, the 52-button Beaumont diagram would only have to be dropped one whole note to include both Ab and Db, and the additional 6 buttons/notes would have other advantages, too. That would, I hope, not require changing dimensions of either chambers or reeds (except for the reed thickness profile when tuning). -
EC vs Anglo.. not the question you think!
JimLucas replied to seanc's topic in General Concertina Discussion
What are the ends of each made of? One can always find exceptions, but in general metal-ended instruments tend to be perceived as both louder and "brighter" than wooden-ended. Meanwhile, not all steel reeds were/are made with the same grade of steel. I believe it's the costlier models that would generally have harder, more elastic steel, allowing for greater swings of the tongue (with sufficient pressure differential) and thus greater volume. -
Tuning of 1860 Lachenal
Wolf Molkentin replied to Bill N's topic in Instrument Construction & Repair
quarter comma meantone might be more likely historically -
No, at least not on #1874. 1) They don't provide a means to anchor such a holder. 2) They are found on all six sides of both ends. Doesn't make sense to mount a music holder in most of those directions... e.g., underneath. 3) #1272 does have a mounting for a music holder. It is quite sturdy and is screw-mounted on the left-end hand bar. They are basically "sideways-facing" fretwork, allowing sound to escape the ends radially in addition to straight out. Maybe (this is pure speculation) intended to let the player better hear the instrument as it's played? The ones underneath probably wouldn't help much with that, but might have been included for visual symmetry.
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Good idea Wolf. I found a table on line with over 100 temperaments. The closest matches all appear to be in the meantone family.
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Interesting interview, good to see pictures... https://blog.mcneelamusic.com/2019/05/22/interview-with-chris-algar-of-barleycorn-concertinas/?fbclid=IwAR3Xeu3ZjBIdG1-xZDlPxkSrWm29wPuXLm3AuwwwFGCTFgLnCLEll5NJpUc
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The clouds are parting and understanding dawns! I found an old thread on this topic, and Geoff provided "note deviations from EQ in cents". I plugged my results into his chart assuming that the tuning is centred on A (my values are in in Bold) and this is what I got: 1/5 Comma; A= 0, Bb= +10 12, B= -4 -4, C= +6 4, C#= -8 -18, D= +2 2, D#= -12 -28, Eb= +12 12, E= -2 -6, F= +8 12, F#= -6 -18, G= +4 2, G#= -10 -18Ab= +14 17. So except for my sharp notes which are more extreme, it looks pretty close to 1/5 comma meantime centred on A, with A being around 444.5 HZ. Does that sound reasonable? Maybe the approach should be to leave it in the meantone tuning, but bring the whole thing down to modern pitch? I fear my ignorance is showing, but the only way forward is through!
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Thank you for your reply and I would certainly like your current recordings on this page .If you could recommend any other duet players that impress you, to join you here, that would be wonderful. I am dedicating this page for Duet players only to submit their recordings, when we have a CDs worth issue it for down load. We have Maurice Harvey,s recordings coming that is a CD on it's own Al.
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EC vs Anglo.. not the question you think!
seanc replied to seanc's topic in General Concertina Discussion
Wolf, nice playing. It definitely sounds more honkey and like my AC. -
EC vs Anglo.. not the question you think!
Wolf Molkentin replied to seanc's topic in General Concertina Discussion
I recorded this with little practice on the particular instrument, but listening to the first tune might give you an impression. The 22/24 have a very special tone which could perhaps be described as bright and fat - simply different from both a Wheatstone Aealo and a Lachenal, whatever model. -
EC vs Anglo.. not the question you think!
seanc replied to seanc's topic in General Concertina Discussion
I am not even sure what model my Lachenal is. But am I generally correct in my judgement that it seems to be quiet? And there would be a substantial difference in stepping up to the 22? -
EC vs Anglo.. not the question you think!
Wolf Molkentin replied to seanc's topic in General Concertina Discussion
Yes, definitely! -
Tuning of 1860 Lachenal
Wolf Molkentin replied to Bill N's topic in Instrument Construction & Repair
I can recommend Piascore PTU-2 (I'm using the iPhone app), but you would have to find the center ("opposite" the wolf) and determine the pitch level first. You could as well, as Geoff might prefer, use a table of deviances from ET. -
EC vs Anglo.. not the question you think!
Geoff Wooff replied to seanc's topic in General Concertina Discussion
For session playing in ITM it is good to have a concertina with plenty of volume available, when one needs it of course and not neccessarily all the time. I agree with Wolf that a Wheatstone model 22 or 24 will usually provide enough power whilst retaining a decent tone quality. A metal ended Lachenal 'New Model' will also have good carrying power but I find the tone can be a wee bit thin ( cutting) and sometimes annoying. Wooden ended New Models are a little quieter but have a so much sweeter sound. I play an early model 22 in a noisy dance band, it holds its own very well and my current spare concertina is also a 22, for those just in case, rare, moments when the main squeeze breaks a spring or drops a pad during a gig. Keep the Anglo too. -
Re: Duet recordings. I recorded and submitted several songs/ tunes to Alan a few years ago.If I was to do it again I would probably choose different pieces, because my repertoire/ability etc has moved on. As many of you will know, I recorded my first solo CD, "After All These Years" a couple of years ago and I have been amazed at its success.To be fair, it was designed to demonstrate my general, all-round repertoire and "entertainment " in the folk idiom, rather than displaying what a Crane duet can do to concertina enthusiasts. There are tunes ( and songs) that I play mainly in session or in private that probably demonstrate this better. But I am not inclined to go to the trouble of recording again specifically for a duet CD. I do, however, applaud the idea, of bringing on board the new /young players- some of whom I know- like Matt Quinn and Jack Rutter,- who have made astonishing progress on the instrument in such a short span of years.(They both play McCanns, but , hey, it doesn't; make them bad people !) I still play self-written West Country songs, English and Irish folk, Americana and 1920/30's jazz.I am appearing regularly at folk clubs and arts centres/ theatre all over the UK and beyond. This year I am at eight different folk festivals ( Bude in Cornwall this weekend). One of the most exciting developments for me recently has been being part of Mick Ryan's folk opera "Here at the Fair - which we are performing at Bude, Shrewsbury, Warwick and Cornwall Folk festivals. In the show's " band" I sit alongside young Cohen Braithwaite-KIlcoyne ... probably the most talented young concertina player ( anglo) and melodeons since John Kirkpatrick still had spots.I have learned so much from him- and I am old enough to be his grandad.These are exciting times for folk music - and I have never known concertinas be so popular. keep squeezing folks.....
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Thanks Geoff and John, I'm glad I didn't barge ahead. I'm looking at getting a tuning app that allows one to select pitch and temperament. Sounds like the best approach is to do all the other work first, then use the tuning app to deduce what the original tuning was and spot tune to bring it back in tune with itself. I'll talk with my singer friend to see if this will work for her. Cheers Bill
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I remember Nick so well as a young man. Joy and I took over from him as residents at the Herga Folk Club in Harrow, North London, in the early seventies when he loved to the USA.He was in incredible Jeffries duet player. I have since long-befriended another exceptional, jazz-playing Jeffries duetter, Greg Powlesland, who lives in west Cornwall. But Nick's playing made a powerful impression on me and probably comes out in my performance, although I play a Crane and don't visit the Morris-influenced tunes he belted out.I sure would have loved to hear him join me in some of the jazzier stuff that I belt out.
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EC vs Anglo.. not the question you think!
Wolf Molkentin replied to seanc's topic in General Concertina Discussion
IMO the answer is simple and clear: go for a Wheatstone Model 22 or 24 - they can be as close to a Jeffries as EC come... All the best - 🐺 P.S.: I could provide you with a SC link to give an impression of the sound (I even used some EQ to filter the high partials). -
So here is the deal. I have a 48 Lachenal English, thank you Greg Jowasis! And I have an AC Norman C/G Anglo ( thank you Tim Tedrow). i got the AC first and just never got my arms around it. Later I picked up the English and it seems to be working. But as I get better, I notice that the Lachenal is substantially quieter. And even though it is steel reeds, it is significantly more mellow. Is this inherent to their respective instruments? As as I seem to be gravitating towards ITM, I don’t think the Lachenal would hold up in a session. Should I look at a different English? Posssibly trade both mine for a brighter English? the anglos is not getting a lot of attention lately, should I keep it and wait for me to come around to the Anglo again? thanks
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Having been able to give it a try some days ago I can only confirm that it's a lovely and highly desirable instrument!
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What our concertinas look like?
Wolf Molkentin replied to new english's topic in General Concertina Discussion
Thank you Geoff - I had a vague notion re Nils' baritone, as he was actually involved in the sale and told me of his alike instrument (which I believe to have met in former years)! I really love the sound; it's different but not inferior to the one of a baritone Aeola IMO. The only tone not speaking so well are the extra low Fs (which I only had to shift from right to left), maybe I'll have to work a bit on the voicing of these two reeds; and as with any (EC) instrument I'm torn between the F and F# (resp. Bb and B with the TT). All the best - 🐺 -
What our concertinas look like?
Wolf Molkentin replied to new english's topic in General Concertina Discussion
Hi Steve, thank you for the encouragement re this instrument. Actually it's my first New Model concertina; I loved my first "real" (disregarding the Hohner/Stagi) concertina, which happened to be an Excelsior, Lachenal's Old (Top) Model if you will. The sound was perfectly balanced for playing melody with harmonies. The action was o.k., the bellows all too worn, and overall a lack of sufficient air supply. Needs some TLC (valves, bellows patches, bushings), but I believe it will keep being too slow for fluently playing honrpipes and stuff, now that I'm spoiled for it (by my Model 24 in particular). I really like my very plain and simple Lachenal Mahogany 20b Anglo, and I love the sound of the Rosewood G/D. Most of the time in the nearer future I will just switch between the G/D and the New Model Baritone I guess. Return of the Lachenal instruments? in a way. But I can't gauge a top level Lachenal treble, i.e. New Model or Edeo, as I never played one. However, my Aeola TT and Model 24 are both exceptional instruments as for me... Do you think your 56 baritone is slightly larger? rather not so I guess, and I reckon it has the partly radial, partly parallel reedpan like mine... All the best - 🐺 -
At a quick glance it looks like a Meantone temperament. As a rule of thumb for this, and similar temperaments, all the sharp keys are flat and all the flat keys are sharp, of some some central point. It is not unusual to come across EC's from the 19th century which were originally tuned this way.
- Yesterday
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A few years back, I worked with Alan to get some recordings of the late Big Nick Robertshaw on 'Duet International." Unfortunately, Nick - my predecessor as musician for the Foggy Bottom Morris Men and the consummate player of the Jeffries duet - never got into a recording studio. What we have is an informal recording he made in his barn. A few of these are his own compositions - 'Beer that Tastes Like Beer" has become something of an anthem among American Morris sides, for obvious reasons. http://rememberbignick.pbworks.com/w/page/10496931/A Night with Big Nick Nick had 3 Jeffries duets, I believe, but mostly gigged on the one he bought at a pawn shop in England decades ago for some ridiculously low price. The way he told it, he brought it to Colin Dipper to be fettled and told him that he wanted the loudest concertina in the world. I believe Dipper succeeded; at Morris events, you could hear his playing blocks away. Nick had a daring, robust playing style. He obviously didn't believe in the minimal use of chords of many Morris squeezers, as you can see here as he plays for Foggy Bottom - one of the dancers is his son. Here he is in an English pub, and you can see how he played the living daylights out of his concertina. I remember many times watching him perform major surgery on his concertina in the middle of a gig to fix something. He did not play gently. I believe he had his Jeffries set up in an unusual tuning; I don't know the details, but believe Gary Coover does.
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Alan asked me to post on this thread a recording that I made long ago for Duet International. He writes: "I would be very grateful if you would post the recordings you sent on my personal mail to that page. That would make you the first but it would also show others what we require." The recording is at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NJjKHQoTTBJgYAXJnKW-tAlnSAaCDaZf/view .I was playing a Elise Hayden Duet from Concertina Connection. The tune (Lios na Banríona, which means Fort of the Fairy Queen) was written by Irish fiddler Nollaig Casey. I learned it from her 1995 CD with Arty McGlynn called "Causeway." From her liner notes: "This tune I've named after 'Lios na Banríona' a small townland near Bandon in Co. Cork where I grew up. The word Lios means Fairy Fort, and the countryside in Ireland is dotted with them. They are in fact, prehistoric ring forts. They were thought to be inhabited by the fairies and people were afraid to interfere with them. As a result a great many of them remain intact and unploughed by farmers to this day."
