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Inventor, totally agree with you and b.e.s. re the utility of having a decently large keyboard, ~65b, to move around in. One of the other advantages of having duplicated notes without changing any settings mid-play: you could code the notes to whatever musical temperament you like, so that could result in the Ab and the G# being distinctly different notes at opposite ends of the keyboard, really highlighting the differences in intonation. Inventor, are you saying that you have a strong opinion about hexagon over octagon or 10/12-side designs? I was wondering about this myself a few days ago, and I personally like octagon, but if hexagon has a genuine advantage I'm flexible. While addressing the limited Hayden supply is a happy side-effect, I think acoustic and MIDI concertinas address different parts of the market. I'm less interested in having a MIDI for playing quietly with earphones, or loud through an amp, and having it sound and behave as close to an acoustic is possible (though all those capabilities are desirable). What I'm interested in is things that can't be feasibly done with an acoustic, such as tuning to other temperaments, microntonal scales, trying different keyboard layouts, etc. My whole interest in a MIDI concertina came from my desire to have a Just Tuned, or Quarter-Comma Meantone tuned one. But when I considered the cost of getting a Peacock re-tuned, and then being "stuck" with a instrument with very iffy resale. But with a MIDI I could swap settings and tweak microtonal junk all day with just clicks of the mouse.

By "auto" do you mean the type of meter that guesses what note is being played (with controls for reference pitch and temperament) and tells you the error? FWIW the tuning work I've done so far is with a cheap but good Mac program called Katsura Strobe Tuner. It seems to work very well, though I think I'm now going to have to add the intervals for 1/5 comma Meantone to its temperament list! The thing that for me would speed up the process the most is a way to note down the error value for each reed without having to put the concertina down and pick it up again between each note. I tried recording the process and speaking the errors out loud, then playing back the recording and transcribing them, but it wasn't really much faster overall. How do others deal with that issue? Recruit an assistant? This is one of the issues that lead to the development of Real Time Tuning Analysis (RTTA) for flutes. Others were more flute-centric - it's so easy to adjust flute pitch as you play that there is a real tendency to subconsciously do it when you should be trying to be brutally honest. I don't think our RTTA systems (we now have two of them) will prove to be everything you need, but they might give you some food for thought. With flutes, our errors tend to be much greater than what can be achieved on the concertina (that's offset by the fact that the player can so easily correct them). We don't have strobe-tuner resolution - that would be a total laugh on the flute. But you might find an RTTA approach would serve for "disaster analysis", and for early tuning sweeps. Further, we don't have the complication of alternate fingerings such as the Anglo has, or bidirectionality such as the English has. I guess you could find ways to get around those, eg play up the rows only on the Anglo, and do separate analyses on push and pull for the English. Have a read at: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/RTTA.htm. It outlines why I wanted an RTTA system, and then leads on to the two systems, the RTTA Polygraph, and Flutini. I'd suggest you download Flutini and give it a try - it will quickly illustrate the possibilities. The Polygraph is more complex, but is open source code based on an easy language, so it could be the basis of some further development. Scott, who developed Flutini, may be quite happy to make his code available too, I haven't discussed that. You might also want to go back to the Tartini package that is the basis for both our systems and work from there. Happy to help in any way possible. Terry

By "auto" do you mean the type of meter that guesses what note is being played (with controls for reference pitch and temperament) and tells you the error? FWIW the tuning work I've done so far is with a cheap but good Mac program called Katsura Strobe Tuner. It seems to work very well, though I think I'm now going to have to add the intervals for 1/5 comma Meantone to its temperament list! The thing that for me would speed up the process the most is a way to note down the error value for each reed without having to put the concertina down and pick it up again between each note. I tried recording the process and speaking the errors out loud, then playing back the recording and transcribing them, but it wasn't really much faster overall. How do others deal with that issue? Recruit an assistant?

That's something I was very much getting at, and not just the low notes sometimes. But there's also the problem that plenty of other instruments aren't in "concert pitch" anyway - lots of modern ones are in A-442 (8 cents sharp), or even 444 (16 cents sharp), whist some old ones might be in A-439 (4 cents flat) or even 435 (20 cents flat) - and I know a seriously good, well-known, flute player who plays a 435 flute! Whilst the musette tuning of some accordions can be as wide as + and - 25 cents (that's half a semitone!) In meantone you can tune to favour a desired set of keys Clive, so I'd tune a C/G Anglo to be sweet in C, D, G and A - but God help you in C#, F#, G# or B natural!

Correct Clive. You can have one key perfectly tuned (Just Intonation), or a number of keys very nicely tuned (eg Meantone and Well temperaments), or all the keys tuned equally badly (Equal Temperament). For those of us who play in a limited range of keys, it would be possible to design a temperament to optimise the tuning of our instrument. An ITM Anglo would be tuned differently to the same instrument playing Morris, so "it goes to intent, m'Lud". But as soon as you started playing with another instrument in ET, you might find it all comes unstuck. I have a book by Jorgensen, simply called Tuning. It's A4 in format, runs to 798 pages and contains descriptions of 61 tunings. It chronicles humanity's ongoing struggle to deal with an inconvenient fact of nature. Terry

Hi Terry, This has been covered before in a number of threads, have a look at these for starters - in the second one, I cite your wonderful website... http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13543 http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13590 I have a 39 button CG Jeffries in a-435Hz, tuned in meantone with both d#s (draw) and Ebs (push) Cheers Adrian

Chris, Very interesting what you tell me. Is good to hear experienced people tell there opinion. As to the tuning scale subject it is about the same here. I own boxes tuned to different systems so one can have a bit of imagination what tuning to a different scale may sound, but it never is only the tuning there are many influences that make the sound of a box different or individual. I always have in mind to get at one time a english concertina for my self and i would like to have it tuned to some type meantone that makes sense on the keylayout. Still i never come over a old english concertina with reasonable price, but i must say i did not really search for one there was always some other work more important in the past. I am also interested about the outcome of your tests. To the files subject i only can completely agree with all you are writing. I only do a complete initial profile on very few reeds for repairs, even if i rivet the complete set myself i did get the curved reed tongues from different factories in the past . In many cases i only do a few chords or single reeds but not the complete set. I am not as careful with my files as you and don't keep each file in a special place. Sure i also take some care to keep the files in best condition as long as possible. I also don't throw away all files once the don't do nice job for tuning the my still useable for some other jobs. I just had a look an and fond that there are over 20 different files in shape and size for all different work on metal and other materials. Very special are the files for filing the slots on the reed frame. So files get in the end quite expensive and therefor i also try to use the files as long as possible.

Johann, I am intrigued by your attention to temperature as a variant in tuning and will perform an experiment with this as soon as I can get my new workshop into shape. Because all energy becomes heat I had imagined the reeds would heat up when in use at least as much as fingers might warm them. Tuning for concertinas is variable according to the wishes of the owner. I have had Irish players wanting aspects of 1/4 comma meantone to improve some chords but unless asked I tune everything to equal temperament. Awareness of other possibilities is very low in anglo circles. I only use beating as a guide to check tuning of octaves. Early concertinas were tuned to various unjustified scales and I hear form repairers these do still sometimes appear for tuning. Thanks for the link to the Valitan files, I was unaware of them. I like the sound of their unclogging properties. My file needs are perhaps different to most others in that I am not only tuning, I am carving the initial profile of the reed from stock. For this I use a Grobet Vallorbe 6" flat file. Although they are not cheap I have conditioned myself to throw them away when I find myself compensating for dullness or hunting a sharp spot on the file. I always know when I held onto one for too long; the next reed gets over carved. They are not a mill saw file (single direction toothed) but they do make a lovely job when sharp. For coarser tuning I sometimes use a three square. I keep the files in a kitchen knife block to avoid them touching when not in use. If anyone is looking for file supplies an online jewellery supply house is a good start. Ebay will yield results also.

And being brass-reeded with wooden baffles, it's going to sound very muffled and fairly quiet. Probably needs some tuning, or maybe even major tuning since instruments that age are often in meantone temperament and not A=440. A with no pictures of the insides, no way to see if the reeds have been well treated over the years, or if there is any leakage between the reed chambers. I'd say this one is gamble. And even in mint restored condition still might not be up to modern playing standards. Gary

As Alan mentioned above, some older vintage boxes were pitched to "Philharmonic", which was about A450 or so. I have a C/G Jones pitched in that key. After measuring the intervals, the temperament was very close to 1/4 comma meantone. It was just a bit flat from modern C#/G#.

Thank you for taking you time to confirm my conclusions, You do speak of Information you did read about the subject is there anything on the net what deals with exactly the meantone tuning in use on concertinas in past days? I never did come across anything, but this may because it is more difficult to find something here in Austria even if i do a search via google it looks like there is noting on the net about it. If any one knows material on the net about it please drop me the link. Also Interesting would be to hear some comments how this Instructs with the meantone tuning sound compare to other tunned to equal scale. I would expect, that if the are tuned well there should be a very distinctive difference in sound and timbre. Here in Austria we do not have a lot of opportunity's to hear Concertinas at all. Best regards, Johann

"definitely in meantone tuning." This sounds interesting to me, I never did get a lot of reply on this subject. I was always puzzled if i had it correct how the old English concertinas ware tuned. Is there a way that you can verify that the tuning is meantone on your instrument? If i am right English Concertinas war tuned with pure 5th and pure 3rds. This leads to the fact that some note existing on two keys (D#/Eb and G#/Ab) are not exactly on the same pitch. The difference between D# and Eb is 21,5 cent (Syntomatisches Comma). would be good to hear form someone if i am right or not. Hope you find a person near you who knows what he is doing when he is doing the service on this old Instrument! Best regards, Johann

Lukasz, Confining ourselves to European music, it is my observation that basic melodies and harmonies are built on the diatonic scale and its modes (a mode consisting of the same notes, but using a note other than the 1st step as the home note or tonic). This applies to traditional European musics, and also to all but the most modern academic music. If this were not so, there would be no point in putting a key signature at the start of a classical score - we would use accidentals where necessary! It is important to note that the natural, diatinic scale consists of larger and smaller intervals. Today, we tend to refer to them as whole tones and semitones, but this is only an approximation. The major 3rd is flatter and the pure 5th sharper than if they were each made up of equal semitones. A major chord made up of a root and such a 3rd and 5th sounds perfect. The perfection, however, quickly fades when we build an instrument - piano, concertina, guitar - that has to be capable of playing in several keys. Because, for instance, what is the 3rd of the diatonic scale of C is the 5th of the diatonic scale of A. So if the instrument is tuned to the diatonic scale of C, the 5th of A will be flat, and if you tune it to the diatonic scale of A, the 3rd of C will be sharp. In both cases, the major chords will sound "sour." To remedy this, and make the chords of C major and A major sound equally pleasant, we have (after a long process) adopted equal temperament for fully chromatic instruments. The converse of this is, of course, that a diatonic scale cannot be regarded as a subset of the equal-tempered, chromatic scale. Conceptually, equal temperament makes it possible to play any diatonic scale, but practically, each diatonic scale is less harmonious than if it were played on a diatonic instrument in "just," i.e. natural tuning with unequal intervals. In the autoharp community - autoharp music lives from its rich harmonies - a real dichotomy is seen between diatonic and chromatic autoharps. An autoharp with only 7 strings per octave is usually tuned "just", i.e. so that all the chords sound "sweet." A chromatic autoharp, with 12 strings per octave and chord bars that enable 3 or more keys, has to be tuned to equal temperament (or at least some form of meantone) if none of the chords are to sound "sour." The final proof that "diatonic" is not a subset of "chromatic" is the fact that a just-tuned, diatonic autoharp, when played together with equal-tempered, chromatic instruments that are nominally playing in the autoharp's key, just does not sound in tune, however "sweet" it may sound by itself. Cheers, John

Apart from tuning/temperament that Geoff is referring to there are two (functionally) different sorts of a "semitones" according to music theory: the diatonic and the chromatic semitone; the former making up one of the two semitone steps within any given diatonic scale, i.e. E/F and B/C in c-maj, a-min (nat.), d-dor, g-mix a.s.f.; whereas the latter (the chromatic semitone) means any alteration of that scale by the use of flats resp. sharps (i.e. F/F#, B/Bb a.s.f.). A closer look on this will reveal the correlation of the two aspects (as I just found out), because in meantone temperament the "chromatic" semitone seems to usually be smaller than its "diatonic" counterpart. Only the (larger) diatonic semitone may be called "minor second", whereas the (smaller) chromatic semitone (i.e. chromatik alteration of a modal scale) is called "augmented unison". Thus the step from G to G# would have to be called a (-n augmented) 1st, as Geoff suggested, whereas the minor second wouldn't appear at all in relation to the root of a (-n unaltered) diatonic scale (but of course as step from B to C and from F# to G within that scale).

Yes homgeneneous Meantone.... but on the EC this tuning is sweeter but is constant throughout the range of keys I have choosen, so it should not effect the mood. I suppose I am used to the 'perfect interval' tuning that I use on my Uilleann pipes and there you would really hear a difference in mood.. that is if it were possible to play a piece like this in enough différèrent keys.

Oh, just forgot one important aspect: You used the Homogeneous Meantone tuning for the recording, didn't you? Should really make a difference of "moods" of any key then... (Do you associate certain "moods" with some keys in HM tuning?) But in Equal Temperament they'd be supposed to sound quite the same IMO.

Those major thirds can sound very harsh in Equal Temperament, which is why I have used a Meantone system for many years now on my EC's and by virtue of that I do use those very handy triangulated chords quite often . This will bulk out the sound when I feel that a little weight is needed.However, as the vast majority of concertinas are tuned in E T these days, the advice given by Blue Eyed Sailor is most apt and I find that to add the octave with the Sixth can make a nice open spaced chord. I've just been trying some simple chords on my Duet which is tuned to ET and I'm finding that if you add an octave to a chord with a major third then the unpleasant harshness can be diminished.

Well, it depends... In some tunes I like even triangular triads, but mostly I'd try to avoid them. Whenever a "dense" chord sounds harsh to me I'd primarily replace a third with a sixth, in general: just spread the chord... IMO this accords to the strength of the EC of not being restricted to that all-to-common melody / accompaniment split. (or alternatively shorten the time the chord is to be heard) But nevertheless I'd be quite interested in giving the "homogeneous meantone" tuning a try...

I will try to download my recording which ... looks to be attached, yippee! This tune is new to me but the genre is not. Played on a 56 key Wheatstone Baritone/treble Aeola EC made in 1927.This instrument is tuned in 1/5th Comma Meantone. Sorry for the little fumbles caused by some loss of control in my third finger L/H after the Stroke... getting better but not quite there yet. Again thanks to all for the help with downloading... Al's method worked great for me ! STE-008.mp3

Yet another is Mrs Casey (Fieldtown). Seems like there are probably loads of them after all - so I probably shouldn't have jumped to conclusions ! Thanks for your kind comments Mike, I'm really happy to hear you like the CD and find the anglo appropriate for this music. Maybe it's because in the renaissance, the lute was considered the "prince of instruments": it didn't distort your posture (like a violin would), you didn't put it in your mouth, or have to stick it between your legs (heaven forbid!), you could sing with it, and it was capable of playing more than one note at a time... Sounds pretty much like the anglo concertina, doesn't it :-) Seriously though, I am helped enormously by having my instruments tuned in meantone temperament, which really supports this music, and makes it sound as though the concertina fits, even if we know it's a complete historical anachronism! Adrian

wes back. thanks for input, mostly what i was thinking anyway. i didn't get immediate feedback, so i tuned to 440 and it took a calm 2 afternoons and some to get all 64 reeds just right, and now the impulse to play is even worse, just what am i gonna do??? would also like to know if any of you have or have played an anglo in meantone temperament, or is it technically 1/4 comma meantone? Of course, what did you think? were chords, fifths, thirds, etc. better? not as pleasing to modern ears....

Hi Frank, Thanks for the clarification. In view of your prestige as a player, teacher, tuner and maker, I was concerned that some would read your comments as a dismissal of any practical utility for non-ET tuning. So I felt I had to launch a tough defense of our discussion here up to that point! I also agree with what you have just written, and was just about to post: Allan, (re: open chord voicings) An excellent point, though these aspects of harmony/orchestration could be a thread in their own right. Due to the additional distance between their fundamentals (and thus between their partials), major and minor sixths (in a sense, "inverted thirds") will tend to sound better than major and minor thirds on the concertina, and "tenths" better yet. But in each of these cases, when playing the same interval and voicing, a concertina tuned with thirds pure (or narrower than in ET) will sound much warmer and less harsh/buzzy than will a concertina tuned to ET. On many concertinas, when playing thirds in the second octave above middle c, the "difference tones" (that can be heard as additional notes combined with the ones intended) are very audible. In ET these come in as extra notes that are grossly out-of-tune with the two notes of the third, and make such thirds almost unusable musically. In 1/4 comma meantone however, the thirds are glorious, all the way up. On the other hand, the fifths in 1/4 comma meantone are pretty active, maybe even harsh to many ears. If your style emphaizes harmonies in fifths and you never play thirds, ET might really be a better option than 1/4 comma. I personally would hate to play the concertina without the option of adding thirds, sixths, and tenths "Just tuning" (when you are playing in the keys in which the tuning really gives just intervals) gives you both (some) fifths and (some) major thirds that are uncompromised, and the sound that results can really spoil your ears... This may be one reason many Irish pipers are so loyal to the wonderful sound of their instrument, and why some actually resent having to play with instruments tuned to ET. BTW I have encountered pipers who are surprised that my non-ET concertinas do not clash with their music as much as they might usually expect. More food for thought, in the context of Chris’s project Paul

There is plenty of information available on the net and elsewhere on quarter comma meantone and other historic temperaments. For example here on Carey Bebe's Harpsichords which has a nice simple description without too much mathematics.

FOLKS: with respect to choosing a temperament: if you have only one instrument, equal temperament is probably the best -- at least the most USEFUL -- choice. . . . .it is after all, THE STANDARD these days. . . . .and if you're going to be doing a lot of playing with piano accompaniment (as i do), you'll be hard pressed to find a piano that uses anything else. . . . . . of my five instruments, three are in equal temperament, one is in 1/4 comma meantone with 41-cent differences between A flat and G sharp, on the one hand, and E flat and D sharp, on the other (and remember: it's the FLAT note that's the higher of the two), and one is in Thomas Young's "well-temperament" of 1800, which i described the other day. . . . .i find that i can play just about anything against a piano with that instrument. . . .reactions among keen-eared musicians is not that it's out of tune with the piano, but that it "stands out" a bit. . . . .even in the keys with four or five sharps or flats. . . . .it was tuned for me by Wim Wakker about two years ago, and it's become my favorite instrument. . . .i probably use it about eighty percent of the time now.................on the other hand, the meantone instrument against an equal tempered piano really will cause some twangs........ Allan

Having thirds in meantone is really helpful when playing, for example, William Kimber and other Morris-type tunes. Kimber almost always played third interval chord fragments as opposed to fifths or full chords, and on my otherwise superb Dipper anglo, tuned in equal temperament, the beating of third intervals (especially the high ones when playing in G) is very shrill and hard to listen to. I don't think Kimber would have developed this accompaniment style had he had an equal temperament instrument....his original two row (which he played prior to 1909) must have been meantone of some sort. I notice lots of people playing "English style anglo" today use more fifth intervals rather than either thirds or full chords when playing accompaniment. Some say it is because they thus don't commit to either a major or minor chord, which is indeed handy.....but I imagine it is also because of the beating of equal temperament in narrow third intervals. I wonder why equal temperament seems to be the standard with concertinas made or retuned today....why shouldn't mean tone be the standard and not the exception? If concern over being restricted to playing near the home keys is the "reason" (eg., F,C,D,G on a CG), I shouldn't think that much of a concern....most of us don't go too far beyond that. And as I understand it, when playing with stringed instruments, mean tone does not present a particular problem for tuning together. It would present a problem when playing with a fixed-tuned accordion or piano.....but that event is not all that common for most of us. I think the early concertina makers were on to something. Any thoughts?