Dating A Lachenal From The Serial Number

[Stephen Chambers]

13 hours ago, Daniel Hersh said:

Is this a very early Lachenal Anglo-German?  Number is 3156.  Currently on eBay at https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134343919281 .

 

 It's a typical early Lachenal Anglo Daniel, from 1865 according to the data, but not early enough for me because I have several earlier examples.

 

The woodscrews, instead of end-bolts, are typical of these, and of early examples of the 2 guinea  "People's" English concertina.

[Daniel Hersh]

11 hours ago, Stephen Chambers said:

 

 It's a typical early Lachenal Anglo Daniel, from 1865 according to the data, but not early enough for me because I have several earlier examples.

 

The woodscrews, instead of end-bolts, are typical of these, and of early examples of the 2 guinea  "People's" English concertina.

 

Thanks!  Good to know.  What's the estimated date of the earliest Lachenal Anglo that you know about?

[Stephen Chambers]

10 hours ago, Daniel Hersh said:

Thanks!  Good to know.  What's the estimated date of the earliest Lachenal Anglo that you know about?

 

I've written at length about that Daniel. The answer is in my paper Some Notes on Lachenal Concertina Production and Serial Numbers:

 

Quote

It is not until the MDRA for 1863, by which time Lachenal’s advertisement has been reduced to a half page, that an engraving (the first hint) of an Anglo concertina appears (opposite that of an English), with ‘prices [running] from £1.11.6 to £21’. The following year—in MDRA, 1864—the distinction between systems/prices is made clear, with prices from ‘£1.11.6 to £2.15.0’ shown under the engraving of the Anglo and ‘£2.2.0 to £21’ under that of the 48-key English.

 

It would seem, therefore, that Lachenal’s probably started to produce Anglos only after the 1862 Exhibition, where ‘German concertinas’ had been exhibited by John Simpson, and Rock Chidley had probably also shown ‘German Fingering Concertinas’, as we know that he was already manufacturing them. It is probably no coincidence, then, that the first sale of an ‘Anglo German’ in the Wheatstone ledgers does not occur until 14th July 1863, and though the sales of Anglos are usually recorded without serial number (sometimes not even the name of the purchaser), an entry on 16th December 1864 names one as ‘Anderson’, who bought six Duets for £3.3.0, three Anglos (Nos. 782, 829, and 1470) for £3.12.0, three more Anglos (Nos. 823, 1483, and 1493) for £4.10.0, and two English concertinas for £4.15.0 (it is as though he was stocking up with cheap concertinas for Christmas!). These Anglo serial numbers do not look to be Wheatstone’s, as they do not fit in with what we know of the firm’s very limited sales of such concertinas at this time. Thus I would speculate that these are most likely Lachenal Anglo serial numbers, though the instruments would appear to have been labelled C. Wheatstone (otherwise we would expect Lachenal’s name to have been entered in the ledger).

 

The known serial numbers for early Lachenal’s Anglos suggest that they belonged to a separate numbering sequence from the outset. The lowest-numbered surviving Anglo by them that I am aware of is 865 (CMC 360), with mahogany ends, twenty keys, a simple circle of fretwork (with no central motif, such as later instruments had), and numbered buttons, labelled Louis Lachenal. It is the same model as 7602, labelled H. Journet (see Fig. 7), or a rosewood-ended instrument numbered 2655, labelled Louis Lachenal (both of which are in my own collection).

 

(That was written 18 years ago, in 2004, and I've acquired some much earlier examples in the meantime.)

[wes williams]

On 11/29/2022 at 12:21 PM, Stephen Chambers said:

 

 It's a typical early Lachenal Anglo Daniel, from 1865 according to the data, but not early enough for me because I have several earlier examples.

 

The woodscrews, instead of end-bolts, are typical of these, and of early examples of the 2 guinea  "People's" English concertina.

Stephen,

Please allow a little thread creep - the MDRA 1862 price list shows "People's Concertina" with "riveted notes". I have often wondered if any of these have survived, and could they have been intended for a new line of manufacture for Wheatstone by Lachenal?

[Daniel Hersh]

7 hours ago, Stephen Chambers said:

 

I've written at length about that Daniel. The answer is in my paper Some Notes on Lachenal Concertina Production and Serial Numbers:

 

 

(That was written 18 years ago, in 2004, and I've acquired some much earlier examples in the meantime.)

 

Thanks - so the one on eBay would likely have been made no more than three or four years after the first Lachenal  Anglo.

[Stephen Chambers]

On 11/30/2022 at 6:43 PM, Daniel Hersh said:

Thanks - so the one on eBay would likely have been made no more than three or four years after the first Lachenal  Anglo.

 

Two, or three, years Daniel, and I'd describe it as early, but not as very early - I'd reserve that description for ones with, two-, or three-digit numbers...

[Daniel Hersh]

How about #189881?  It's a rosewood-ended 30-key C/G Anglo.

[Stephen Chambers]

3 hours ago, Daniel Hersh said:

How about #189881?  It's a rosewood-ended 30-key C/G Anglo.

 

That would seem to be from the beginning of 1916 Daniel.

 

In fact it fits right into a sequence of numbers that I'm interested in, described in the thread Steel reed frames in c.1915 Lachenal Anglos, so I'd be interested to learn more about it.

 

Like does it have "full" (to the edge) hand-cut fretwork or spindle-cut? Brass, or steel, reed-frames? Etcetera...

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Stephen Chambers

[Daniel Hersh]

3 hours ago, Stephen Chambers said:

 

That would seem to be from the beginning of 1916 Daniel.

 

In fact it fits right into a sequence of numbers that I'm interested in, described in the thread Steel reed frames in c.1915 Lachenal Anglos, so I'd be interested to learn more about it.

 

Like does it have "full" (to the edge) hand-cut fretwork or spindle-cut? Brass, or steel, reed-frames? Etcetera...

 

 

Hi, Stephen--

 

Thanks for the info.  It has brass reed frames, and here's a pic of one of the ends.  I can send you more photos and details if I can have your email address (you can give it to me via c,net PM is fine if you don't want to post it publicly).

[Stephen Chambers]

4 hours ago, Daniel Hersh said:

It has brass reed frames, and here's a pic of one of the ends.  

 

Thanks, that's sufficient to confirm what I supposed. It looks like the (disastrous) steel reed-frames, etc., were (mercifully) only tried out on a relatively small number of their cheaper, spindle-cut fretted, Anglos.

[Stephen Chambers]

On 11/30/2022 at 4:41 PM, wes williams said:

Stephen,

Please allow a little thread creep - the MDRA 1862 price list shows "People's Concertina" with "riveted notes". I have often wondered if any of these have survived, and could they have been intended for a new line of manufacture for Wheatstone by Lachenal?

 

Lachenal certainly made some with large-headed rivets for Wheatstone's, Wes, with the simpler pattern of spindle-cut fretwork and in maple.

 

But I don't recall seeing them in a "People's Concertina" - I must check the early example that I have, stored elsewhere.

[Sprunghub]

Can you advise on the year for a Rosewood ended, 30k, bone buttons, steel reeds, in C/G with 6 fold bellows ( simple papers ), serial number 155158. , thanks.

[Stephen Chambers]

37 minutes ago, Sprunghub said:

Can you advise on the year for a Rosewood ended, 30k, bone buttons, steel reeds, in C/G with 6 fold bellows ( simple papers ), serial number 155158. , thanks.

 

Certainly, that'll be 1897.

[Sprunghub]

13 hours ago, Stephen Chambers said:

 

Certainly, that'll be 1897.

Many thanks, Stephen.  

[DerekL]

Hi Dowright and Sfephen,,

 

You may already have this information, as I shared it with Doug Creighton at the Button Box decades ago, but here is a datum point for a Lachenal Edeophone built in 1928

 

My Aunt (Bessie Lane) in the UK, purchased what is now my Lachenal Edeophone, serial number 60013, new from Lachenal for £15/10/- on July 6th, 1928.

 

Here is an edited OCR file of the receipt:

 

Telegraphic Address:                  Telephone -- MUSEUM 6322.
"LACHENAL. LONDON."
4 & 6, LITTLE JAMES’ STREET,
GRAY'S INN ROAD, LONDON, W.C.l (near the Holborn Hall).

6th July, 1928
Miss Bessie Lane

To LACHENAL & CO.
Patent Concertina Manufacturers

60013  48k  Edeophone.         £ 15 / 10.

No. 271        6.7.1928
Received, with thanks, the sum of
Fifteen pounds, ten shillings  -  pence

For Lachenal .....  (signature on two one-penny stamps showing head of George V.)

Cash £15.10.0

 

Cheers, Derek

LachenalReceipt.pdf

[d.elliott]

On 12/22/2022 at 6:17 PM, DerekL said:

Hi Dowright and Sfephen,,

 

You may already have this information, as I shared it with Doug Creighton at the Button Box decades ago, but here is a datum point for a Lachenal Edeophone built in 1928

 

My Aunt (Bessie Lane) in the UK, purchased what is now my Lachenal Edeophone, serial number 60013, new from Lachenal for £15/10/- on July 6th, 1928.

 

Here is an edited OCR file of the receipt:

 

Telegraphic Address:                  Telephone -- MUSEUM 6322.
"LACHENAL. LONDON."
4 & 6, LITTLE JAMES’ STREET,
GRAY'S INN ROAD, LONDON, W.C.l (near the Holborn Hall).

6th July, 1928
Miss Bessie Lane

To LACHENAL & CO.
Patent Concertina Manufacturers

60013  48k  Edeophone.         £ 15 / 10.

No. 271        6.7.1928
Received, with thanks, the sum of
Fifteen pounds, ten shillings  -  pence

For Lachenal .....  (signature on two one-penny stamps showing head of George V.)

Cash £15.10.0

 

Cheers, Derek

LachenalReceipt.pdf 34.18 kB · 10 downloads

 

 

This is interesting, if you look at a curve of serial numbers against dates you can see the production rates climbing with a steepening gradient from around 1906, and the production rate is increasing at almost an exponential rate up to 1928. I would have expected that the curve would have been flattening, and even declining at this point in time. It seems quite counter intuitive.

[Thy28293]

Hello,

As a great beginner in concertina - on this forum as well - I post a short description of my 48 keys  English Concertina, that I got few days ago, with the mahogany case.

No more outside label, but the inside says :

" LACHENAL & co LONDON, 8, LIT. JAMES St, BEDFORD  ROW."

"48 KEYS"

Serial number can be seen on different internal parts : 28293.

Lachenal and Co, EC, 48 Keys, pitch : supposed to be in 452 Hz (will check...)

buttons : bone, colored, letter marked

wooden ends : flat, not " moulded " - sides seem to be with rosewood veneer ; button holes without bushing 

bellows : 5 folds, simple gold pattern / white paper.

inside : brass (screwed) reeds, hook action (as expected)

Conclusion : not the high end model, but nice old one for a beginner (ie : me !) ; needs new thumb straps, some new valves, maybe some new pads... 

 

Dating ?

Considering the following data (found in the previous pages and other readings) , about Lachenal English concertinas :

"No 21153 circa 1877 *

No 26318   Excelsior : circa 1885*

No 26906 : circa 1886 *

No 27590 : circa 1887 *

« No 28320 with "bowing valves" : « not before july 1885 »* (question : dose any one know the year ?! very close to 28293, isn't it ?...)

No 28821 : « edeophone, (…) very early developmental model (…) should be dated to no later than 1889 » **

No 29000 : circa 1890 - « 29000 around 1890» *

No 29079 : 1890 « is a good estimate » *

No 29161 : circa 1889 ***

No 29731 : « would appear to date from the latter part of 1890 » ****

No 32281 : « data says early in 1894 » ****

No 32620 : 1894 *

No 32621 : 1895 *

No 33598 : circa 1896 / Seth and Dowright

No 36736 : circa 1898 ***

 

« (…) about 800 to 1000 (made) per year in the mid -1890’s » *

« (…) Lachenal production in the period (= circa 1890 ) was about 800 concertinas per year»*

Dowright said *

« Some notes on Lachenal Concertina Production and Serial Numbers », PICA, 1 (2004), Stephen Chambers **

wes william said ***

Stephen Chambers said **** "

 

...  I would say : (1887) 1888 – 1889 .

Any other close number in your data banks ?

Thanks for reading.

Thy

Edited May 29, 2023 by Thy28293

[Stephen Chambers]

1 hour ago, Thy28293 said:

Hello,

As a great beginner in concertina - on this forum as well - I post a short description of my 48 keys  English Concertina, that I got few days ago, with the mahogany case.

No more outside label, but the inside says :

" LACHENAL & co LONDON, 8, LIT. JAMES St, BEDFORD  ROW."

"48 KEYS"

Serial number can be seen on different internal parts : 28293.

Lachenal and Co, EC, 48 Keys, pitch : supposed to be in 452 Hz (will check...)

buttons : bone, colored, letter marked

wooden ends : flat, not " moulded " - sides seem to be with rosewood veneer ; button holes without bushing 

bellows : 5 folds, simple gold pattern / white paper.

inside : brass (screwed) reeds, lever action (as expected)

Conclusion : not the high end model, but nice old one for a beginner (ie : me !) ; needs new thumb straps, some new valves, maybe some new pads... 

 

Dating ?

Considering the following data (found in the previous pages and other readings) , about Lachenal English concertinas :

"No 21153 circa 1877 *

No 26318   Excelsior : circa 1885*

No 26906 : circa 1886 *

No 27590 : circa 1887 *

« No 28320 with "bowing valves" : « not before july 1885 »* (question : dose any one know the year ?! very close to 28293, isn't it ?...)

No 28821 : « edeophone, (…) very early developmental model (…) should be dated to no later than 1889 » **

No 29000 : circa 1890 - « 29000 around 1890» *

No 29079 : 1890 « is a good estimate » *

No 29161 : circa 1889 ***

No 29731 : « would appear to date from the latter part of 1890 » ****

No 32281 : « data says early in 1894 » ****

No 32620 : 1894 *

No 32621 : 1895 *

No 33598 : circa 1896 / Seth and Dowright

No 36736 : circa 1898 ***

 

« (…) about 800 to 1000 (made) per year in the mid -1890’s » *

« (…) Lachenal production in the period (= circa 1890 ) was about 800 concertinas per year»*

Dowright said *

« Some notes on Lachenal Concertina Production and Serial Numbers », PICA, 1 (2004), Stephen Chambers **

wes william said ***

Stephen Chambers said **** "

 

...  I would say : (1887) 1888 – 1889 .

Any other close number in your data banks ?

Thanks for reading.

Thy

 

The date I gave you already is the latest/best estimate from the data banks. The serial number 28293 appears to be from the very end of 1888, so possibly the beginning of 1889.