wes williams

David Giovannoni has recently created a new website https://i78s.org/ which contains over 46,000 early recordings 1890s-1930s, mainly from USA sources. Its free, but you will have to set up an account to access the recordings. Searching for 'concertina' gives you eleven cylinder recordings, nine from Alexander Prince (Maccann duet), and two from Isak Piroshnikoff (English). I think you will be surprised by the quality of these cylinder recordings compared to the more common 78rpm records. David was responsible for discovering, and transfering to audio for the first time, the earliest known recordings from the 1850s made in Paris by Leon Scott de Martinville on lampblack-sheets.

Thanks for the heads up Steve, That date is around 10 years later than our current estimate of circa 1859 for this instrument. Current research suggests that Lachenal started numbering his own make English concertinas starting at 5000 in 1858. The 1869 date is much nearer 1873 when Louis Lachenal became Lachenal & Co, and we have lots of evidence of the label changing around the serial number 18000 for English concertinas. So the inscription points to an acquisition date rather than a manufacturing date.

Stephen, Please allow a little thread creep - the MDRA 1862 price list shows "People's Concertina" with "riveted notes". I have often wondered if any of these have survived, and could they have been intended for a new line of manufacture for Wheatstone by Lachenal?

Thanks Mike, That shows that our estimates are fairly near in this region. The instrument could have been purchased from a dealer in the local area, and might have been sold to the owner a bit later than our estimate. But the details will be added to our database and taken into consideration next time we update our estimates.

Mike - Circa 1897

Hi Gabrielle, We'd estimate 38860 as circa 1900.

Circa 1873.

Circa 1931

Hi Wally, A bit of history - serial 4679 puts this instrument into the 'Duet' serial number range. This isn't unusual as we have two more New Model anglos (4674, 4681) very near this, and we'd estimate them to circa 1929, just before Lachenal folded.

Mike - circa 1881. Another new one for the database, so can you tell me metal or bone buttons, etc please.

Agree entirely, Stephen. My comment was just to show a brief dating summary, without any details. We don't have enough data or documentary evidence to pin down the exact date change in numbering system. Was it related to the patent expiry (1910), or was it related to the adoption of the Crane by the Salvation Army as the Triumph system (1912)? Maybe we'll find out one day!

We'd put this as circa 1907 with our current estimates. But although we've got around 6,700 instruments listed we only have around 180 Cranes, so we can't be very accurate. The Crane system only came into use in 1896 and it's numbering system changed about 1912 to use the Maccann duet numbering.

As you said 'travelling to the UK' don't leave an upturned hat or open concertina case in front of you, as it could be interpreted as busking for money. Shock! Horror! There are legions of different local bylaws in cities and larger towns that either forbid busking or require some kind of licence or permisson. Most people won't be bothered, but you may encounter an official jobsworth or local police to hassle you. The railway and underground stations aren't good places either. But don't let this put you off. Many of us have busked (for money!) without hassle

Thanks for that Mike - there is a Crane in our database with exactly the same number, so another bit of evidence that Maccanns and Cranes started with different series of numbers.

Roger, We'd estimate 16812 as circa 1871.

If we go back to late 1920s/early 1930s, Lachenal were suggesting that it would take around 5 - 6 weeks to produce and despatch Edeophone and New Model concertinas, as they were not stocked but built to order. See bottom of page 2 of this price list.

Looks like its a 'Swan' brand from the label. They were made by Otto Weidlich in Klingenthal, Saxony, and the Swan trade mark was registered in the UK in 1883

If you haven't already found it on the wayback machine its here: https://web.archive.org/web/20150303120725/http://www.concertina.net:80/ww_pitch.html

As Stephen said in the linked article, Bostock was better known for banjos, and a history article from a banjo magazine has him active from about 1880 to mid 1920s. He also has a full page advert on page 3 of Maccann's Concertinists Guide (1888). Stephen also wrote (at the end of this thread)... Thomas Bostock... the Crabb family of concertina makers (formerly in Liverpool Road, Islington) still have a stamp used for marking his name onto the concertinas they made for him... so Crabb is always a possibility.

Yes, usually batch numbers are 3 digits or less, and also stamped into instrument. But maybe these handwritten numbers are from a repairer or someone similar, which is why I suggested a 'batch' interpretation of the numbers.

Hi Richard, There are two types of numbers appearing on Wheatstone instruments - the serial number and the batch number. I suspect the number you've seen is a batch number, which were used to keep all the parts for a single instrument together as it was being made. Serial numbers were usually stamped into the parts, not handwritten.

Hi Steve, Randy started this thread, but has now retired from any action on this subject. I've taken over and a few other well known researcher members now have enough info to continue to answer dating questions if I'm not around. We need to know the serial number and the type (anglo/english/duet),number of buttons, wood or metal ends, etc. No personal details are ever stored.

Without numbers and a bit of a description we can't estimate 😟 but the address puts it 1873 - 1933

I remember reading something about action end warping many years ago, and the solution was said to be putting a layer of damp sawdust on the end, and leave it until the warp righted itself. Anybody like to comment?

I've recently come across an archive of John Knight and others recordings on soundcloud. Especially of interest to anglo players here will be Paddy Murphy (recorded 1972) and Packie Russell (recorded 1973). But for English system players there are also quite a few recordings of John's son Andrew. Its a huge archive with many Irish Trad musicians and singers that John recorded in the 1970s for you to dig into, as well as UK folk names. It's got many sad memories for me as I spent years playing with John's eldest son Simon (a brilliant button accordion player, far right in the photo) in 'The Velvet Bottom Band' for dances all over the Mendips, and picked up many Irish tunes from him. Although I only played guitar in the band, Simon knew I also played concertina for Morris and Stave, and gave me a copy of the Packie Russell tape. The photo shows John's four sons.