English Or Anglo (A New Member With The Same Old Question)

[James McBee]

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum, though I've been reading it obsessively for a few weeks. A little background: I only discovered the concertina recently. Or rather, I was aware of the existence of such an instrument, but thought of it only as a small accordion, associated mostly with a sort of cartoon notion of a sailor. Then this past Autumn, I heard Niall Vallely in concert. I was there to hear his brother Cillian, as I love the pipes (though, for a multitude of reasons, I would never attempt to play them). Anyway, I was blown away. Niall is clearly a wonderful musician and a great writer of tunes, but I was also immediately taken with the concertina itself. I played violin for a while as a child but never had the ear/intonation for it. Later I took up fretted instruments, but I always wished for an instrument with infinite (or near infinite) sustain. I thought about the accordion, but the sound didn't quite do it for me. Don't get me wrong, the accordion can be wonderful, but the tone of it seems a little limited somehow. To me, it's always either sort of joyful/raucous, or on occasion bluesy. The concertina is capable of all that, but also of a clarity which seems a bit more poignant, for lack of a better word. Perhaps its the double vs single reed thing.

 

Anyway, I've been doing research, but I'm having a bit of trouble deciding whether it's the English or the Anglo for me, or indeed whether concertina is the right instrument at all. I've bought a number of CDs, and have been watching videos on Youtube, and the stuff I like best is almost all on Anglo. With that said, much as I might like to, I'll probably never be ripping through blistering jigs the way some of these folks can. O'Carolan is probably more my speed. And I have to say, the bisonoric thing scares me a bit. I love playing music, but I'm not particularly gifted. The level of coordination required with the Anglo seems formidable. The other side of that equation though, is that perhaps it is the push pull thing that makes the sound appealing. It's hard to say.

 

The other consideration is price. Frankly, it was shocking to see how much a decent Anglo goes for. I don't have any extra money to throw into what, for me, will only ever be a hobby. So I will have to sell or trade some of my current instruments to make a purchase possible. I have a very nice mandolin that I wouldn't mind parting with, though the mandolin market is very soft now, and I wouldn't get close to what I paid for it. In order to get to even a decent Anglo I would probably also have to sell my tenor guitar, which I would be truly loath to see go. Even then, a Jeffries or better Wheatstone would be out of reach. In contrast, the mandolin alone should be worth a Wheatstone model 21 or 22, either of which seems like it might be closer to the sound I'm after than the hybrid Anglo that would probably end up being my other option.

 

Anyway, any thoughts or guidance would be greatly appreciated. And on the off chance anyone is looking to get into stringed instruments, and has a steel-reeded metal-ended concertina that they would like to trade for a fairly unique, luthier made, archtop mandolin, send me a PM. Thanks very much for your help.

 

Cheers,

James

[Greg Jowaisas]

Hi James,

Some members of concertina.net in the D.C. and Baltimore area get together every few months. You might want to contact Jim Besser or Randy Stein (Click 'members in the heading and look them up and send a personal message). they are excellent players at anglo and English respectively and are active in hosting the get together. My understanding is that the gathering is very friendly and informal and includes a variety of free reed and some string instruments. It should offer you an opportunity to listen to and even try some different concertinas.

 

Fellow Baltimorian (could that be right?) Mike Franch is an English player and cnet member. He has a Wheatstone Mode 21 and could also be helpful.

 

It's great that you are doing online research in preparation for buying a concertina but there is no substitute for being able to listen live and try out some instruments for yourself.

 

Good luck in your concertina adventure!

 

Greg

[Ken_Coles]

Some standard answers that I still personally subscribe to:

 

Anglo or English? (or Duet?). Chris Timson sums it up for me; a large factor is how your brain takes to them. There is no substitute for spending a few weeks trying each and seeing how you get on. Folks will give you all sorts of deductive reasons why this or that choice, but your personal experience is important too.

 

You don't need a Wheatstone or Jeffries to start. The cheaper models started out more of us here than may freely admit it. The concertina connection models are serviceable.

 

You are near DC, where regular meetings of players occur. I'm sure they'd give you a go on their boxes if you showed up. Search for DC and squeeze-in.

 

Welcome to the madness (one thing concertinas and pipes have in common),

Ken

Edited February 20, 2014 by Ken_Coles
Greg beat me to it!

[Tradewinds Ted]

I strongly advise that you get your hands on a decent instrument of each type. It is likely that one style will feel more natural to you.

 

To start just try sounding out a simple tune you know completely, like "Twinkle Twinkle:Little Star" or maybe a Christmas carol. The initial point isn't to demonstrate how great a musician you are, but to get a feel for the instrument.

 

I borrowed an English from a friend and the whole system of alternating notes from one side to the other felt odd to me. The thumb strap and pinky rest also really annoyed me. My background playing other instruments would suggest that I would want the flexibility to play in any key (and I do) but the English concertina and I just don't get along.

 

The Anglo on the other hand suits me. The bisonoric nature does one a little batty, but I found it soon started to work. The diatonic nature of the rows is both a blessing and a curse. The home keys (usually C and G) are very easy, and flow out of the instrument, and harmonies just offer themselves up right where they are wanted. The farther you get from those keys the harder it is to find the notes you want. I started with a 20 button, which I still prefer to play, but some notes simply aren't there. That is less of an issue than I feared because so many English folk tunes are played in G, and D.

 

But other people have exactly the opposite experience, with the English cosying up to them and purring while the Anglo fights against them.

 

The point is try both before spending any money.

[Chris Timson]

Anglo or English? (or Duet?). Chris Timson sums it up for me; a large factor is how your brain takes to them. There is no substitute for spending a few weeks trying each and seeing how you get on. Folks will give you all sorts of deductive reasons why this or that choice, but your personal experience is important too.

 

 

Thanks, Ken, for saying that for me

 

I play anglo but Anne, my wife, plays English. We each feel incomprehension for the approach of the other's instrument and no amount of logic would ever convince either of us to spend serious time on the other system. This is what lies behind my personal conviction that choice of system is a personal thing that is not fully susceptible to logic (the same goes for any sort of instrument, not just concertina systems). If you play around with concertinas for a few hours you'll soon get a feel for whether the instrument appeals at a physical level. The point is, if you enjoy playing it you'll put the effort into working out how to play the music you want to play. If you don't enjoy it you'll never put the practice in to play anything!

 

Chris

Edited February 20, 2014 by Chris Timson

[JimLucas]

...any thoughts or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

I strongly agree with the others that

• The only reliable way to get a decent idea of which kind (if any?) suits you is to try each one.
• You are extremely lucky to be located where this is not only possible, but even relatively easy. To arrange that you should PM Randy or Jim B. (if they don't contact you first ).

The point is try both before spending any money.

More than "both", if that's possible. It could well be that some sort of duet is the "right" instrument for you.

[Steve Mansfield]

I play anglo but Anne, my wife, plays English. We each feel incomprehension for the approach of the other's instrument and no amount of logic would ever convince either of us to spend serious time on the other system. This is what lies behind my personal conviction that choice of system is a personal thing that is not fully susceptible to logic (the same goes for any sort of instrument, not just concertina systems). If you play around with concertinas for a few hours you'll soon get a feel for whether the instrument appeals at a physical level. The point is, if you enjoy playing it you'll put the effort into working out how to play the music you want to play. If you don't enjoy it you'll never put the practice in to play anything!

 

 

I was about to write exactly the same post - but in our house I play EC whilst my wife plays anglo.

 

The mutual bafflement as to how the other can manage to get the simplest of tunes out of the other's concertinas is exactly the same though

 

Enjoy finding out which system is right for you James.

[MatthewVanitas]

Really concur with the "get your hands on one and feel it out": I've messed with Anglo off and on and never got a feel for it, yet somehow I have no problem playing 1-row button accordion with the same bisonoric settup. But then again I couldn't make sense of 2-row button accordion... I think bisonoric sounds weird to a lot of people, but I'm not convinced that initial gut reaction corresponds with how intuitive it feels once it's in your hands.

 

 

While it will certainly be great to try out some local instruments (and if you happen to be in DC much I can show you Duet concertina), if you are inclined to Anglo but concerned about "digesting" it, Buttonbox (and any others?) do rentals reasonably affordably, so you could perhaps rent an inexpensive 30b Anglo, mess with it for a month or so, and then make a decision. Or alternately rent an English and see how that key layout suits.

[maccannic]

It could well be that some sort of duet is the "right" instrument for you.

 

You sound a bit like me when I started. I knew I fancied a concertina, but I had negative feelings about both anglo and English. Then I discovered duet, and the rest as they say is history.

Edited February 20, 2014 by maccannic

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

In the first place, you should consider your desired repertoire: I've starded on an Anglo just to discover, that while this is a compact instrument with a lot of tradition and a great fun, I could not play almost anything I wanted on it, because of its bisonoric nature. Each type of concertina has its limits and benefits. You should also consider how steep the learning curves for each type are and how much time you'll be willing to spend on playing. E.g.: it is very easy to play a melody in a home key of an Anglo, but it gets a lot harder if you want to play in different keys with a lot of harmony; it's very easy to play harmony on a Hayden and you benefit from learning in almost all keys at once, but playing melody is sometimes more demanding; englishes are more logical than Anglos (outside the home keys), but the alternating hands style of play may not suit everyone and ergonomics may be awkward if you have long fingers or any problems with your wrists; and so on...

 

Read all discusions here regarding advantages and disadvantages of Anglos, Englishes, Haydens, Maccans, etc… and then try as much different types as you can.

 

The more informed decision you'll make now, the smaller is the chance that you'll want to change your choice after a year or two.

And Concertina Connection starter models are perfect for the first instrument as they may be traded in when upgrading both with Concertina Connection and ButtonBox.

 

One last thing: there are a lot more Anglo players on YT than all other types together, so the impression from watching YT might be a little biased. Listen to some great examples of different possibilities in this thread: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16240 or TOTMs, where you can compare the same tune played in different styles on different concertinas. Listen both to the best players around like Jody Kruskal or Thomas Restoin and those with just couple of years of experience, to see (hear) what they struggle the most with.

[gentofte]

I was in much the same situation last fall. I had played all kinds of string instruments for decades, but I was feeling dissatisfied with them when I accidently came across the International Accordion Museum in Montagny, Quebec, in early September. After spending the day and learning a great deal about free reeds, I decided to give it a try. I had owned and played a couple of EC's in the early 80's, and I had kept a small EC around the house the last few years, but I wanted a different challenge. I started with a three row Compadre, and found that too large and too loud and then went to Hohner Merlin and then a Castagnari Lilly (wonderful instruments), trading some as I went along. And, while the three row and two row concepts were interesting and not too hard to figure out, they were still too loud. (I had to turn off my hearing aids to play them). So I tried a Rochelle Anglo, which I liked and then I tried a Hayden Duet Elise, which I decided almost immediately was not for me. Finally, I contacted BB about making a G/D Ceili model anglo for me, which like with Goldilocks I found to be just right. BB had sent me one to try which just reinforced my decision. My new one should be here in 2-3 weeks.

 

For me, the two and three row melodeons make a lot of sense as you quickly see how to play long passages without changing bellows direction, especially on the draw, even moreso with the three row.

 

But in the meanwhile I bought a Cajun / Quebec single row in D, and I bought a Chinese "Excalibur" 30 button C/G anglo just to have around.

 

Compared to what professional string instruments cost, I find the upscale concertinas to be pretty reasonable. A Stelling banjo is over $5K, top Martin guitars are getting in that same range, and good mandos are often twice that.

 

So, it is Anglo for me. I found Bert Levy's earlier book to be helpful, and there is great amount of very helpful information right here in this site. But, as everyone says (correctly, imo), try them all. Good luck.

 

BTW, having said all of the above, I suspect that by the fall if I hear a good Mexican polka or cumbia (pretty common where I live) I'll start looking again for a three row.

[James McBee]

Thanks to you all for taking the time to respond. It sounds like I really need to try and lay hands on a few different instruments.

 

You don't need a Wheatstone or Jeffries to start. The cheaper models started out more of us here than may freely admit it. The concertina connection models are serviceable.

 

 

A good point, but I have some reservations. With a stringed instrument, it always seems to me that the better part of the tone is up to me. But with a stringed instrument, I can bend a note, or mute it, or alter the attack in any number of ways. With the concertina, I know that one can alter the bellows pressure or introduce a little tremolo and such, but on the whole the tone seems a bit more built in. I could be wrong about that, but that's the way it seems. I just haven't taken a real liking to the sound of the accordion reeded instruments that I've heard. And in some of the clips of Lachenals, it seems to me there is almost...I don't know how to put it...almost a delay between the depression of the button and the sound. I think I would lean towards Anglo, but it worries me that I might have to sell off all my instruments, just to buy something that I still wouldn't find wholly satisfying. I firmly believe that a great instrument can make one a better player, if only insomuch as it rewards one with a beautiful sound, and so encourages one to practice.

 

The bisonoric nature does one a little batty, but I found it soon started to work. The diatonic nature of the rows is both a blessing and a curse. The home keys (usually C and G) are very easy, and flow out of the instrument, and harmonies just offer themselves up right where they are wanted. The farther you get from those keys the harder it is to find the notes you want. I started with a 20 button, which I still prefer to play, but some notes simply aren't there. That is less of an issue than I feared because so many English folk tunes are played in G, and D.

 

Well, I'm thinking you all are right that there's no substitute for trying the thing out. As I said, the bisonoric thing is a little terrifying. I may need to take Matthew's suggestion, and see about renting an Anglo. I doubt an afternoon would be enough for me to figure out whether I can make it work. Yesterday, when I wrote my original post, I was really leaning towards English. Watching more videos on Youtube, I'm increasingly thinking there is something about the ornamentation on the Anglo, that I really love, and would have trouble replicating with another system.

 

It could well be that some sort of duet is the "right" instrument for you.

 

You sound a bit like me when I started. I knew I fancied a concertina, but I had negative feelings about both anglo and English. Then I discovered duet, and the rest as they say is history.

 

I thought a bit about the duet. Two things give me pause: a number of posts on the internet reference a lack of learning material, and then there is the size of the instrument. Most duets seem to be a bit on the large size as concertinas go. I have to admit, part of the appeal of the concertina is its diminutive nature. I like the idea of something that I can travel with, or even haul about town just in case an opportunity to play arises. But I would definitely entertain the notion of a duet.

Edited February 20, 2014 by James McBee

[gcoover]

I've played both EC and Anglo for many years, and love both for what they can be capable of, and yes, it really depends on what style of music you want to play and how chromatic you want to be.

 

But if you are just trying an EC for the first time you will probably find it quite incomprehensible - I struggled many times initially with a friend's instrument and always handed it back quickly in complete resignation. It wasn't until I got the Frank Butler book and started working through the system that I began to get comfortable with its back and forth and up and down logic. Now I love it and play it almost instinctively, but it took a while to get there.

 

Of course, with an Anglo, you can make a fairly decent noise straight off. Since the keyboards are pretty much linear (until you start exploring cross row stuff), it's like the more well known harmonica and piano.

 

My suggestion is to listen to as much as possible on YouTube and elsewhere and note which concertina styles you like the most. If it's Niall Vallely's style that grabbed you, you can certainly play the same notes on an EC but it just won't sound quite right. If you like Alistair Anderson's playing, there's no way an Anglo could pull that off smoothly. Same for song accompaniment, compare John Kirkpatrick to Tony Rose or Lou Killen - different styles, each beautifully effective with their respective instruments.

 

But you're doing the right thing - asking the Cnet Brain Trust for suggestions and recommendations (of which there will be no end), and then watching and listening and checking in with local players. Once you decide, get a decent starter instrument and if it's a good fit for you, you can always upgrade after that if you feel you need to. Who knows, maybe someday you'll end up playing both?!?

 

Gary

[DaveM]

If you can make it down to DC, the House of Musical traditions rents out starter concertinas.

[Jim Besser]

 

 

Anyway, any thoughts or guidance would be greatly appreciated. And on the off chance anyone is looking to get into stringed instruments, and has a steel-reeded metal-ended concertina that they would like to trade for a fairly unique, luthier made, archtop mandolin, send me a PM. Thanks very much for your help.

 

Cheers,

James

 

 

Others have covered most of the ground here. Anglos are more commonly used for Irish trad, and there is an abundance of learning materials - and Noel Hill's excellent, rigorous Irish concertina classes. If Irish is your primary interest, there are some strong reasons to go the Anglo route.

 

But it's all personal. I can't wrap my head around an English and found Anglo easy to pick up, at least the basics; I know many others for whom the reverse is true. The English is a more flexible instrument, suitable to a wider range of genres, as is the duet.

 

You're more than welcome to come to one of our DC/Baltimore area concertina gatherings; we generally have an abundance of all three types of concertinas. Since we just had one, we probably won't do it again until late spring or early summer.

 

And if you get down to Virginia, just off the DC Beltway, I'd be happy to let you get your hands on some Anglos and give you a mini lesson.

 

As Ken said, you don't need to get a Jeffries or Wheatstone to start out with - indeed, it would be foolish. THere are superb hybrids - personally I favor the Morse instruments - that play as well as most vintage instruments, albeit with a different sound, at relatively modest prices.

[JimLucas]

It could well be that some sort of duet is the "right" instrument for you.

You sound a bit like me when I started. I knew I fancied a concertina, but I had negative feelings about both anglo and English. Then I discovered duet, and the rest as they say is history.

Actually, just trying to give advice without prejudice. My own personal "history" was quite different from your description of yours:

 

The players I had heard and admired all played English; I was hardly aware that there were other kinds. At a party I had a chance to try an English, and though I knew nothing about the note layout I was playing a simple melody in parallel thirds (in what I later realized was the key of Eb) within a few minutes. A friend found me an English to borrow, and it simply felt "right".

After 6 months I had to return the loaner, and I went into withdrawal. Every time I met someone new I asked them if they knew anyone with a concertina for sale. In the meantime, I found a cheap Italian 20-button anglo, which kept me from going totally nuts, but which I didn't find satisfying or even very comfortable, though I did manage to play tunes (melody only) for some local Morris dancers. One night my badgering of new acquaintances paid off, as two different individuals said yes, they knew of a concertina for sale. Both were English, and I bought them both, and as you say, the rest is history.

Except that the "history" doesn't end there. I've since learned to play a bit more on anglos and also on duets (mainly Crane, but some Maccann, and I've played around with others). English is still my main squeeze, which I still find far more comfortable than the others, but I enjoy the different influences the others have on my music. And I'm very aware that what is best for me is not necessarily best for everyone. Hence my advice to try them all, if possible.

[Wolf Molkentin]

I had mainly been a piano and piano accordion player until discovering the English concertina for me some 2 1/2 years ago. It had been the intuition of one single morning, bought the instrument via eBay and never looked back. Certainly no way to suggest to others, I was very lucky...

 

But my point is as follows: beforehand I had been determined to get me an Anglo, based upon some experience with the melodeon (and even the 20 button "German" concertina, a "core" Anglo if you like). But the Anglo I had ordered left me totally disappointed, and thus I was very glad being able to refund it due to a technical flaw (swapped reeds).

 

Considered Duet then, but hey - the English was it, without doubt, even keeps me from playing the piano after decades!

 

That's my story - best wishes with yours, still to develop! Wolf

Edited February 21, 2014 by blue eyed sailor

[Terry McGee]

My feeling is that the choice of instrument is pretty well defined by the sound you want to make. I'm predominantly interested in Irish music, and so I couldn't imagine choosing anything other than an Anglo. Sure, I've heard plenty of really good English Concertina players playing Irish music, but none of them have made the sound I associate with Irish concertina. This sort of sound: http://www.concertinachick.com/

 

And you shouldn't worry that you won't be able to make it, or make it beyond O'Carolan speeds! Just knuckle down and it will happen. I started less than three months ago, just before my 66th birthday, and I reckon I'm making good progress, despite not being able to practice every day. I'm following the OAIM coarse (http://www.oaim.ie/concertina-basics), and finding it very helpful - well graded and it should stop me from developing bad habits. No concertina players in my little antipodean seaside village.

 

I found that rather than risk getting stale hammering away at the same tune day after day, I went on ahead, so I now have some tunes I'm now playing at speed, some I'm still in the business of accelerating, and some I'm still working out. I've slipped in a few tunes other than the OAIM tunes if they caught my attention and they fit within the abilities I've already built up. And I've reached the point where, if I'm working out something new by ear, I almost always get the next note right. I wouldn't claim "intuitive" status yet, but it's clearly on the way.

 

Have a look at the 6 free lessons of the OAIM course - indeed, learn one of the tunes on the mando if you are in doubt. I reckon if you can play it on the mando, you can play it on the anglo! I find it helpful to learn tunes I've never heard before on the whistle or flute (my main instruments) first. But mando or humming or singing them would work too.

 

Main thing is to do something!

 

Terry