English Or Anglo (A New Member With The Same Old Question)

[Anglo-Irishman]

I firmly believe that a great instrument can make one a better player, if only insomuch as it rewards one with a beautiful sound, and so encourages one to practice.

 

 

 

James,

You'll often hear the advice to beginners to start with the highest-level instrument that they can afford - partly for the reason you state.

Now, I'm a fretted-string player, too, and I see a difference between guitars, mandolins etc. on one hand and concertinas on the other.

In both cases, a cheap instrument will lack the beauty of sound that an expensive one will have.

But with a cheap guitar, for instance, there are other discouraging factors. Often the action is too high, making it difficult, especially for a beginner whose finger muscles are not yet trained, to stop the notes cleanly. And there's always the risk that the frets may not be properly spaced, or the bridge may be misplaced, so that even the best player will never be able to play it perfectly in tune. All this detracts from the motivation to press on, and there's not much you can do to remedy it.

 

But even cheap concertinas are in tune, or can be tuned. And the button pressure is within a manageable range over the price range, so there's no physical impediment to producing clean notes. I've tried a cheap Anglo that had uncomfortable handstraps, but better handstraps are not expensive and are easy to retrofit.

 

Of course a top-of the-line concertina is better than a cheapo in all these respects, but the difference is not nearly as great as that between a plywood guitar and a luthier model.

 

By the time you realise that it's the tone of the concertina that's limiting your progress, you'll know whether you want to play the concertina for the rest of your life, and can justify the long-term investment in a good one (or not, as the case may be).

 

As long as you're learning in private, the tone is less important. Just concentrate on getting to know the instrument and the repertoire. It's when you want to perform solo that you need to start worrying about the tone!

By the way, there are musicians who actually prefer the tone of a hybrid for group work, so a Jeffries or top-end Wheatstone may not be necessary for you.

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

John

[Doug Barr]

Hi James, since in your first post you said you saw Niall Vallely then you ear must have been attracted to the sound and pulse of the anglo......so go for it! If you buy one of the top of the line hybreds (Edgley,Tedrow, Morse.....) the instrument will not get in your way and learning will be a pleasure. You can always move up to a Dipper, Suttner, Jeffries....... later if you find the sound you like and you pocketbook can pay for it.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Doug Barr

[Mike Franch]

Fellow Baltimorian (could that be right?) Mike Franch is an English player and cnet member. He has a Wheatstone Mode 21 and could also be helpful.

 

Greg is right about my being a fellow Baltimorean (or Baltimoron, as we sometimes say). I live in Waverly, if that means anything to you.

 

First, congratulations on starting such an avalanche of responses on your second post! Of course, list members love to offer advice, and all that they've offered you is good.

 

I could probably arrange for you to get together with a few people to try their 'tinas. I don't know any local duet players, but I know ango and EC players. We tend to be evangelical about concertina playing, of whatever system. One of us might even be able to lend you something.

 

I play EC, for a number of reasons, but one of the most important is that there is an excellent EC teacher in Baltimore (Hampden). Having no experience in playing an instrument before I started at age 68, this was tremendously important (indeed, crucial) for me. It might be less necessary for you.

 

And, yes, consider renting from the House of Musical Tradition in Takoma Park. It won't be a top of the line instrument, but it will give you entry. BTW, you can find YouTube videos of people playing entry-level instruments beautifully. Myself, I need a good instrument to play tolerably.

 

PM me if you want. I'm also in the phone book (I know, archaic information technology).

 

Mike

[MatthewVanitas]

I could probably arrange for you to get together with a few people to try their 'tinas. I don't know any local duet players,

 

Yo, my man: 45min south of downtown B-more.

 

Despite my enthusiasm for Duet (and Hayden in particular), I didn't press it on the OP since he seems really taken by Anglo, and while one certainly can play Irish on Duet, it's not its traditional forte. I did pause a bit, because with the mention of O'Carolan rather than jigs/reels, I do think Duet does slow aires and the like really well, but I presume a lot of what the OP listens to is the broader Irish repertoire, Noel Hill-style stuff, etc. which indicates Anglo. All that said, I am certainly happy to show my Duet to the OP if he wants to swing by.

Edited February 21, 2014 by MatthewVanitas

[ceemonster]

if you are pretty sure you want to play solely or principally irish, it might be worth it to give anglo a go. if you know you want to play irish as well as other genres such as scandinavian, french, easterm european, etc.....perhaps you want to give ec a go.

 

of course, that's coming at it from what genre(s) you wish to play. coming at it from the question of, would you have a problem learning 1 system versus another; or would you take with more ease and facility to 1 system versus another, that IS an argument of getting a cheap one to see. or...sked a long weekend in boston and spend a day on a trip to BB, and try a whole bunch of different concertinas to get a feel...

[Jim Besser]

I truly believe that some brains wrap around the diatonic Anglo, others around the chromatic English. It's important to figure out which works for you. Hence the advice: try both systems (three, if you can find any duets). That should be the most important factor - unless you want to focus entirely on Irish, and want to emulate the sound of the great players in that genre. In that case, Anglo is the answer, and you'll have to get your brain to adapt.

[JimLucas]

...the advice: try both systems (three, if you can find any duets).

Seems to me that one "local" duet player -- MatthewVanitas -- has already found him, right here in this thread. So he does have a chance to try all three major types, even if not all subtypes...

• anglo - from 20 buttons to 45; Jeffries, Wheatstone, and custom layouts; C/G, G/D, and ...
• English - treble down through baritone (or even bass; Jim, do you know Don Nichols?)
• duet - besides Hayden there are the Crane (=Triumph), Maccann (=Wheatstone), and even Jeffries systems

Edited February 21, 2014 by JimLucas

[James McBee]

I want to thank everyone again for the incredible outpouring of thoughtful responses. I can't say that I've reached any decisions other than to try all three systems if possible.

 

 

Others have covered most of the ground here. Anglos are more commonly used for Irish trad, and there is an abundance of learning materials - and Noel Hill's excellent, rigorous Irish concertina classes. If Irish is your primary interest, there are some strong reasons to go the Anglo route.

But it's all personal. I can't wrap my head around an English and found Anglo easy to pick up, at least the basics; I know many others for whom the reverse is true. The English is a more flexible instrument, suitable to a wider range of genres, as is the duet.

 

You're more than welcome to come to one of our DC/Baltimore area concertina gatherings; we generally have an abundance of all three types of concertinas. Since we just had one, we probably won't do it again until late spring or early summer.

 

And if you get down to Virginia, just off the DC Beltway, I'd be happy to let you get your hands on some Anglos and give you a mini lesson.

 

As Ken said, you don't need to get a Jeffries or Wheatstone to start out with - indeed, it would be foolish. THere are superb hybrids - personally I favor the Morse instruments - that play as well as most vintage instruments, albeit with a different sound, at relatively modest prices.

 

 

Thanks Jim for the advice, and for the incredibly generous offer. I'm not in VA all that often (I don't know how you all deal with that traffic), but it it wouldn't be an intrusion, I'd definitely be interested meeting you all, and observing, next time you have a get together. I likely won't be making a purchase before the middle of summer, and even if I do, I will certainly have a lot to learn.

 

 

I firmly believe that a great instrument can make one a better player, if only insomuch as it rewards one with a beautiful sound, and so encourages one to practice.

 

 

 

James,

You'll often hear the advice to beginners to start with the highest-level instrument that they can afford - partly for the reason you state.

Now, I'm a fretted-string player, too, and I see a difference between guitars, mandolins etc. on one hand and concertinas on the other.

In both cases, a cheap instrument will lack the beauty of sound that an expensive one will have.

But with a cheap guitar, for instance, there are other discouraging factors. Often the action is too high, making it difficult, especially for a beginner whose finger muscles are not yet trained, to stop the notes cleanly. And there's always the risk that the frets may not be properly spaced, or the bridge may be misplaced, so that even the best player will never be able to play it perfectly in tune. All this detracts from the motivation to press on, and there's not much you can do to remedy it.

 

But even cheap concertinas are in tune, or can be tuned. And the button pressure is within a manageable range over the price range, so there's no physical impediment to producing clean notes. I've tried a cheap Anglo that had uncomfortable handstraps, but better handstraps are not expensive and are easy to retrofit.

 

Of course a top-of the-line concertina is better than a cheapo in all these respects, but the difference is not nearly as great as that between a plywood guitar and a luthier model.

 

By the time you realise that it's the tone of the concertina that's limiting your progress, you'll know whether you want to play the concertina for the rest of your life, and can justify the long-term investment in a good one (or not, as the case may be).

 

As long as you're learning in private, the tone is less important. Just concentrate on getting to know the instrument and the repertoire. It's when you want to perform solo that you need to start worrying about the tone!

By the way, there are musicians who actually prefer the tone of a hybrid for group work, so a Jeffries or top-end Wheatstone may not be necessary for you.

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

John

 

 

Hi John,

 

That's an excellent point, and perhaps the opposite side of how I was looking at it. I'm still not certain though. What really hooked me was a certain kind of concertina sound. Based on the videos, I'm not sure the hybrids really have that. But, buying a hybrid would certainly allow me to figure out whether the technique is within my abilities, before I sell off all my worldly possessions to get the tone I am after.

 

Hi James, since in your first post you said you saw Niall Vallely then you ear must have been attracted to the sound and pulse of the anglo......so go for it! If you buy one of the top of the line hybreds (Edgley,Tedrow, Morse.....) the instrument will not get in your way and learning will be a pleasure. You can always move up to a Dipper, Suttner, Jeffries....... later if you find the sound you like and you pocketbook can pay for it.

 

Thanks Doug. I'm definitely leaning towards the anglo. As I said in my original post, the bisonoric thing worries me a bit, as I am not renowned for my coordination, and the logistics of the bellows work seems like one more thing to keep track of, but as you point out, the anglo is the sound that grabbed me, so it probably makes sense to give it a try.

 

 

Fellow Baltimorian (could that be right?) Mike Franch is an English player and cnet member. He has a Wheatstone Mode 21 and could also be helpful.

 

Greg is right about my being a fellow Baltimorean (or Baltimoron, as we sometimes say). I live in Waverly, if that means anything to you.

 

First, congratulations on starting such an avalanche of responses on your second post! Of course, list members love to offer advice, and all that they've offered you is good.

 

I could probably arrange for you to get together with a few people to try their 'tinas. I don't know any local duet players, but I know ango and EC players. We tend to be evangelical about concertina playing, of whatever system. One of us might even be able to lend you something.

 

I play EC, for a number of reasons, but one of the most important is that there is an excellent EC teacher in Baltimore (Hampden). Having no experience in playing an instrument before I started at age 68, this was tremendously important (indeed, crucial) for me. It might be less necessary for you.

 

And, yes, consider renting from the House of Musical Tradition in Takoma Park. It won't be a top of the line instrument, but it will give you entry. BTW, you can find YouTube videos of people playing entry-level instruments beautifully. Myself, I need a good instrument to play tolerably.

 

PM me if you want. I'm also in the phone book (I know, archaic information technology).

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike,

 

It's definitely Baltimoron...or at least it is amongst ourselves. I lived in Waverly for a while growing up, and I live in Hampden now. Small world. I'll definitely send you a PM. It would be great to meet some players in the area.

[James McBee]

I should add--a number of people inquired as to what type of music I am interested in playing. As I alluded to in my original post, I listen to a lot of Irish music, but I'm certainly not interested in Irish music exclusively. I am, however, primarily interested in playing melody. Throwing in the odd chord or harmony would be nice, but I think I prefer a simpler (less keyboard like) rendition on the concertina...which would be more in keeping with my musical abilities anyway.

[ceemonster]

i dunno, we're all different--some folks definitely will have a "block" to one system or another, but some folks wouldn't have a problem with any system. on anglo, I am very much a "use ALL your available notes" player, so it did take me a while to get fluent and fluid in the many different pathways and phrasing permutations you can choose from given so many notes in both directions. but it was just a practice issue, not a barrier to the bidirectional anglo set-up...

 

I've been on EC for a bit under a year, no problem with the bilaterial thing, find it a real kick. i would probly have never tried EC if there were Anglos that doubled all notes up to "high C," and all notes were easily reachable playing to speed, but this just isn't the case. even irish pros who have 38-key anglos acquire different-tuned Anglos for the "flat" keys, and i became intrigued by EC due to its chromatic facility for all keys, and for playing other genres...my only complaint about it is I'm having trouble finding an ec with tenor notes AND the lung power of the full-voiced Jeffries or crabb anglos...acquired a crane duet about four months ago, and just starting to practice scales and simple melodies on it, no problem there either. (i did make a deliberate choice to go for a duet system with the same layout for all octaves on both sides, rather than "exceptions" to be memorized a la maccann....)

 

my "barrier zone" has been the diatonic accordions that only have 2 notes doubled in both directions (as opposed to anglo concertina, whose layout doubles many of the "main" notes). i can play b/c accordion but not with the flow or facility of CBA or the various concertina systems. i was able over a long period to learn to finger my 2-row bisonoric, but it just never became second-nature, and the bellows movements also have never felt natural or comfortable. the unisonoric accordions and both anglo and unisonoric concertina, have been a much better match with my brain and motor orientation...

Edited February 21, 2014 by ceemonster