Jeffries 45K Anglos

[Don Taylor]

I have very limited experience but the bellows on my Anglo (an Edgley) feel completely different to my EC (a Lachenal).

 

Despite being leaky, the Lach feels much, much stiffer than the Edgely. The Edgley feels 'elastic' and can easily be pushed to get attack.

 

I have been wondering about replacing the Lach's bellows with some deep fold Anglo style bellows.

 

Has anyone done this?

 

Is it a bad/good idea?

 

I feel that it might màke the Lach physically easier to play, and make it possible to push the dynamic range.

 

Don.

[Guest mglamb]

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Edited August 10, 2013 by mglamb

[spindizzy]

The problem that I find in a session is that for a concertina, the player is the person who can least hear the instrument!

I've just come back from a session where another concertina play is almost always too loud, In consequence I get a bit paranoid about playing too loudly without realising and am always asking DH, "was that too loud?" There's a good seat in a corner we all fight for, since in that situation I can actually hear what I'm playing. Mostly I have to go by the feel of instrument to know if I'm playing the right notes :-). If the mandolin player next to me winces and moves away - I'm too loud, If I can't hear anything, I'm probably about right.

[Geoff Wooff]

I have very limited experience but the bellows on my Anglo (an Edgley) feel completely different to my EC (a Lachenal).

 

Despite being leaky, the Lach feels much, much stiffer than the Edgely. The Edgley feels 'elastic' and can easily be pushed to get attack.

 

I have been wondering about replacing the Lach's bellows with some deep fold Anglo style bellows.

 

Has anyone done this?

 

Is it a bad/good idea?

 

I feel that it might màke the Lach physically easier to play, and make it possible to push the dynamic range.

 

Don.

Don,

this sounds like a 'new versus old' problem. If your Lachenal has an old and patched bellows, which leaks then you will benefit greatly by getting a new bellows for it. The Bellows is a consumable part of the instrument... so the effect can be like getting new tyres on your car.. suddenly the road does not appear to be so bumpy.

 

I have a new Wakker bellows on a Treble Wheatstone and it is a joy to use, because of its flexible, almost elastic feel. For an instrument that changes volume with the slightest change of hand pressure it is nice to have a springy feel to the bellows , when it is 75% open that is.

 

So, I don't know about using a 'deep fold anglo bellows' but a new bellows with 6 folds will have certainly more elasticity.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Geoff Wooff

[Anglo-Irishman]

 

There does seem to be some sort of loudness fetish around here ...

Some deny this, saying that they merely want to be heard in a loud environment. I suppose they mean sessions...

 

Not all of us Anglo players play Irish music, or in sessions - a number of us are Morris musicians who play solo outdoors for a group of dancers who can become quite spread out at times, and their audience (who are often rather noisy during the performance). The ability of an instrument to produce sufficient volume and punch to carry in this environment is critical.

 

Absolutely!

I'm a soloist myself (self-accompanied singer), so I do everything in my power to make my music audible without forcing anything. That means keeping physically fit, working on my enunciation, having quality instruments that produce a good volume, and polishing my playing technique to bring out the best in them. Renewing banjo and autoharp strings regularly is part of this, but so is a careful manicure for the banjo and optimal picks for the autoharp. The luthiers do their bit, too, by building tone and volume into their instruments. A soloist can't be too loud (at least, not in an acoustic setting. Amplification is a whole different can of worms!) The easier it is to hear the music, the easier it is to really listen to it. This is even more so in the case of dance music, with the background noises that you mention.

 

So I'm with you in the battle against background noise. Roll out the heavy artillery! But even here, it's the attack of the note that cuts through, rather than the sustained note.

 

My last posting was about the sound of your instrument relative to other instruments. The mark of quality in ensemble playing is that everything blends, but nothing sticks out. You should really only notice an instrument when it's gone. And in my experience, when you're playing without amplification, all acoustic instruments (that would normally congregate to play together) are heard by the listeners.

It's sometimes a good idea to stick a microphone somewhere in the middle of your session or group practice evening. You'll be surprised how much better your instrument or voice comes across on the recording than while you're playing or singing!

 

Cheers,

John

[Wolf Molkentin]

Some thoughts...

 

As to a cutting and powerful tone, you would in fact just have to go for sort of a "niche" instrument (like, in the treble range, the - late - Lachenal Excelsior that I play; not even the loudest instrument, but simply different, i.e. sonorous and squealing if treated the right way...). However, I'm not familiar with the T (or TT) range...

 

If having the thumbs completely stuck in the straps you would hold the instrument almost between the thenars (which allows for a fair amount of - sudden - pressure IMO).

 

Of course a concertina "has" a vibrato (resp. tremolo), as we discussed at length some time ago. Fellow concertinists may be more experienced with that, but a sample of this vibrato/tremolo as I use to apply it at times is to be heard here...

 

Regards - Wolf

[Chris Ghent]

I have very limited experience but the bellows on my Anglo (an Edgley) feel completely different to my EC (a Lachenal).

 

Despite being leaky, the Lach feels much, much stiffer than the Edgely. The Edgley feels 'elastic' and can easily be pushed to get attack.

 

I have been wondering about replacing the Lach's bellows with some deep fold Anglo style bellows.

 

Has anyone done this?

 

Is it a bad/good idea?

 

I feel that it might màke the Lach physically easier to play, and make it possible to push the dynamic range.

 

Don.

Some caution is indicated here. In my experience when people say "the bellows are stiff..." they are almost always confusing the condition of the bellows with the quality of the reeds. If the reeds have a poor fit between reed and frame it will take more pressure to get the same level of volume and it will use much more air. Almost every Lachenal concertina has poor fitting inefficient reeds compared with most modern concertinas.

 

If you still suspect your bellows are stiff take out a bunch of the reeds and while holding the buttons for those reeds down open and shut the bellows. If they are indeed stiff then you will feel it now. Another way to do this would be to take the ends off and grip the end of the bellows and push them in and out.

[ceemonster]

i hold the EC simon thoumire-style, at a 45-degree angle, much like i hold anglo, with the thumb troughs not merely unused but removed from the instrument, and i can assure that this approach allows for very full and forceful articulation indeed (or the reverse--it facilitates dynamic control whichever way one wants to go). the issue will be to match up with the right instrument(s).

Edited July 20, 2013 by ceemonster

[Azalin]

There does seem to be some sort of loudness fetish around here ...

Some deny this, saying that they merely want to be heard in a loud environment.

 

Yes agreed 100%. I just came back from an Irish music festival and it's really interesting to see how some people approach the 'volume' issue. One of my friends got a new concertina and she told me the new concertina was a very loud instrument and that someone in her band was complaining about it. She said she told the band mate that it's pretty much the way it has to be as the new instrument is just louder. Well, when I got my County Clare Dipper I was playing it the same way as my previous instrument and it was very loud, so I adjusted the pressure on the bellows and it was much quieter. I think volume is a choice. What I don't understand is the obsession some people have to be heard in loud sessions. Noisy sessions sound less musical to me and most very advanced players I know would not bother playing in noisy/busy sessions. My Dipper concertina is like a sound rocket if pushed harder but I never had to push it in the past 3-4 years. One of the best time I had this week was when I was at the back of a room where a few musicians were playing very mellow stuff, and I was playing along a few tunes very quietly but the sound was still resonating and it was very well balanced with other instruments. At the end of the day, I think volume has to do with ego, and all of us have some of it at different extent!

[ceemonster]

it really is something to see the judgments and assumptions people read in and supply from their own storehouse of biases to a comment such as, i don't want to spend thousands and thousands of dollars for an instrument that is inaudible in a session. or, i'm shopping for an EC that is as loud as a Jeffries (this prompted a fascinating disquisition from someone who read in to that, that i wanted an EC that "sounded like" a Jeffries). horrors, what how shall we dispose of all the musicians who committed the crime of acqually acquiring a jeffries--perhaps their "ego" issues are so grave they need to get rid of their Jeffries and acquire the quietest, wood-ended, brass-reeded concertinas availble. this has been like a rorsach test....of the "ego" issues of the people operating from their own prejudices and making pronouncements accordingly. my own ego, is just fine, thanks. and i'll keep shopping until i locate the instrument i'm lookig for.

[Chris Ghent]

Hilarious...

 

As the only person in this discussion who made a comment anything like that (sounds like a Jeffries) let me say you have misunderstood my intended reason for saying neither EC sounded like a Jeffries. At the time I had written another paragraph on why Jeffries have honk and the ECs I had mentioned didn't, and the relationship between honk and volume. Much of it was speculative and while writing it I became dissatisfied and subsequently deleted it. Nevertheless there is no need to get on your horse about what was left. It was clearly not talking about you and your desires because you never did say you wanted a Jeffries tone, only the volume.

 

Regarding a coupling of ego and volume, I also reject this. The person who suggested it also said you should be so good you don't need to hear yourself. He is clearly a much better player than me. Or perhaps he only plays off written music. When session playing by ear with variations spontaneously selected on the fly I find I need to hear myself and this is the source of my drive towards volume.

[Greg Jowaisas]

Ceemonster and I have exchanged a few emails so I don't have a lot to add except for two thoughts:

 

No less a concertina luminary than Malcolm Clapp has indicated that two of the loudest, most assertive concertinas he has ever come across were late model 40b Crabb anglos.

 

Here is an interesting story: A physicist, engineer and economist are marooned on a desert island and the only provision is a can of beans. The physicist is calculating the eventual decay of the can's integrity from bombardment of cosmic rays. The engineer thinks they can undermine the roots of the island's single palm tree and drop it with enough force to squash open the can.

 

The economist smiles at them both and says, "Assume the can opener."

 

Perhaps it is not too presumptive to say find a nice concertina (or use the, no doubt, wonderful Dipper) and "assume" the pig-nose amp?

 

Greg

Edited July 25, 2013 by Greg Jowaisas

[ceemonster]

look, even the loudest anglos are inaudible in a super-horrifyingly-noisy session. that's just the nature of concertinas, and i wasn't talking about that kind of scenario, being one of the folks who wouldn't want to be playing in that context in any event. i'm talking about the context with enough noise that instruments including concertinas with some lungs can be heard and hear one another, but it's not you and your concertina in the living room or on stage in a quiet concert space with two other instruments and mikes. there are metal-ended ECs that are as loud as loud Anglos, and I'm looking for one with no apologies necessary or offered....i may just go with a 39-key Anglo, but am not sure it's the right thing.....

[gcoover]

A lot of the discussion of loudness has been dealt with elsewhere, but it's extra difficult with any concertina since everyone else hears it louder than you since the sound blows out the ends. Never sit next to another concertina player or you will hear them louder than you. But the issue of cutting through all the fiddles in a session can be important, someone made the excellent suggestion of sitting near a wall or corner to help hear yourself better.

 

Not that it applies to anyone here, but I'm reminded of the old saying: "If you can't play, play fast. If you can't play fast, play loud".

Gary

[Chris Ghent]

There is another factor in the perception of loudness in concertinas. The sound in a concertina is being produced further from your ears than with many instruments.

 

To take a fiddle for instance, the sound holes in a fiddle are around 6" from your ears. Because of the way energy laws work if you double the distance you will halve the volume. So if you listen to a fiddle at 12 inches it will have half the volume it did at 6". Double the 12" to 24" and you will halve the volume again. Now you are hearing a quarter of the volume you heard at 6 inches.

 

From this, if the fiddle and a concertina (assuming the concertina held 24" from the ears, about right for me) were to play equally loud the fiddle player will be hearing their own playing at 4 times the volume the concertina player hears their own playing. Anyone across the circle will hear them as equally loud.

 

Other instruments have this same setup. Uilleann pipes for example, (somebody told me this is why Paddy Keenen wears a hat) but whether there is a problem hearing yourself depends on the other instruments playing and whether the sounds are similar. Banjos are at the same distance from the ears but usually audible.

 

Regarding wearing a hat, I do this if a session is on carpet and it allows me to lower my playing volume. However it is not such an enjoyable experience, the hat brim reflects only certain frequencies, a small slice of upper partials which grate on the ear after a while.

[Mike Franch]

I like Chris's explanation of the drop-off of sound as the distance increases even by a few inches. I can offer an example of this. In my relatively early days of playing, attended a workshop for all instruments lead by a renowned fiddler. I was really in over my head, but I thought, "what the hell!" I was probably playing my brass-reeded, four-fold bellows concertina--not a bellower, by any means, and was experimenting with a few principal notes and cords in the tune because I couldn't keep up with the melody. The young fiddler on my left kept moving his chair farther and farther away, until stopped by a pillar! And I thought I was playing so softly!

[d.elliott]

The idea of playing in a session is to blend, to contribute and to add to the overall sound , not to ruin it for everyone else by dominating and blasting them out of the room, if you want to do that I suggest you go into a small room with hard surfaces and squeeze hard. Or perhaps take up the .... melodeon ????

 

That aside,

 

concertinas project their sound out sideways, you usually don't get to hear your instrument very well because your ears are inboard of the two sound boxes and their directional output. The tendency is to overplay

 

The other thing is that all reeds flatten in pitch the more you overplay and strain them. The big reeds especially so. So play loud, dominate whilst playing flat? to me this is a bit like yelling football match style in a choral setting.

 

Dave

[malcolm clapp]

...Malcolm Clapp has indicated that two of the loudest, most assertive concertinas he has ever come across were late model 40b Crabb anglos.

 

Which is not to say that such concertinas always have to be played in such a manner.

 

Most (all???) well set up quality concertinas of all (most???) systems should deliver a decent dynamic range in the hands of a player aware and sympathetic to any given situation. Just one more skill to master on one's musical journey.

 

Very few of us decide which car/motorcycle to purchase soley based on the (claimed) top speed, but it's nice to be able to plant the foot occasionally and/or to know that there's a bit of oomph available if needed.

 

My 10c worth....

Edited July 27, 2013 by malcolm clapp