The Trouble With Anglo Concertina Availability

[LAFidel]

The one point I can agree with in the topic starter's message is that it is virtually impossible to play Irish music on a Stagi. A poor instrument hinders a musician's ability to develop and improve his technical skills. A quality instrument, on the other hand, facilitates technical mastery and rewards practice with the bonus of beautiful sound. For this reason, I believe that it is the BEGINNER who can benefit most from a well-made concertina. An experienced player can make even the worst instrument sound good, if not great. A novice can't. Where is the incentive to practice if the concertina is not worthy of the effort?

 

I might add that I have been playing the concertina for 6 or 7 years now. During that time, I have owned a Stagi, a Wheatstone, a Suttner and a Carroll. I have a Kensington and another Suttner on order. I have never paid more that $4500 out of pocket for an instrument. I live in rural Ohio, I don't have any special pipeline to the makers, but I haven't had a big problem finding decent concertinas, affordably priced. What I HAVE done is to keep in touch with fellow students from Noel Hill's Cincinnati class, and to visit the buy/sell and forums pages on this website daily. Working your contacts and your sources; it ain't rocket science.

[Dave Prebble]

I live in rural Ohio, I don't have any special pipeline to the makers, but I haven't had a big problem finding decent concertinas, affordably priced. What I HAVE done is to keep in touch with fellow students from Noel Hill's Cincinnati class, and to visit the buy/sell and forums pages on this website daily. Working your contacts and your sources; it ain't rocket science.

 

Good on Yer LAFidel !

 

All you need is the will to do it, a little forethought and a pinch each of cunning and luck !

 

All the best ... and good hunting!

 

Dave

[m3838]

One note on worthy instruments.

I agree that a beginner shouldn't get a top notch instrument. It will not help, as it shows all the glitches in said beginner's playing and can even discourage further advance.

I sounded better on Parrot C/G accordion than on Castagnari. So I sold Castagnari and got myself 3 Hohners, that seem to be just what I need.

My super-duper handmade Bayan was too much for me, as I wasn't going to become professional and go to concervatory, and it was so sencitive, I had to sweat over keeping the constant bellows pressure etc. No fun, just hard work. Again, a Hohner 3 voice was so much sweeter, but I had no money.

So in a way I agree with the starter of this thread: "Buy the best instrument you can afford" is a misconception. Surely Steve Jobs can afford alot, and will make a joke out of himself. Same goes for mediocre drivers owning race cars or overweight women riding top notch bikes, wearing Olympic biker's attire: God forbid to hapen to ride just behind her.

However, it's a personal decision of purchasers, it's their right to make fools of themselves.

I can see the situation where rationing is necessary, and decision of a commity is reasonable approach.

Concertinas? Those tiny round toy accordions, that sound like bagpipes? - Eh.

[CaryK]

This has been an interesting topic. First off, let me apologize to mccabe who began this post for the tone of my previous responses. It certainly wasn't as civil as it should have been. Secondly, you stated that I hadn't addressed anything specific about your complaints regarding concertina availablility. That's because I found your underlying premise to be wrong; that owning anything beyond our current ability level was "extravagant" (your word, not mine) and that enthusiasts shouldn't have good concertinas while more deserving professionals and wannabe professionals were having a hard time finding good ones. I just cannot support this basic premise in any way for a variety of reasons, many of which have already been expressed by others in this thread. But here are a few other facts you should know. Firstly, most people beginning the concertina do not start with top of the line instruments.

 

I am a mid-50s male, who took up the concertina about a year and a half ago. I was fortunate to be able to attend one of Noel Hill's workshops this past year. Yes, there was ample opportunity for concertina envy. This was good natured "envy" at the other player's good fortune to own a fine instrument, not a begrudging, resentful envy because they had something the rest of us didn't In fact this school was the first opportunity I ever had to see a concertina played live (except for watching myself play for 15 months). And it was awesome to be able to try someone else's Carrol, Wheatstone, or Jeffries. Names I had heard about for months, but never thought I'd actually have one in my hands. It was a true thrill.

 

At the school, among us beginners (only one of us had prior musical training) there were Stagis and Tedrows. All suitable instruments, but no top-o-the line instruments. None of us learned a roll or a cran. We learned basic scales, some notation reading, a few simple ornaments and chords, Noel's preferred across-the-rows fingering techniques, and a number of tunes to practice all that we learned. It took me most of the week to develop the new muscle memory to be able to do the new fingering and unlearn the old muscle memory. I finally "got it" and now enjoy its advantages. Among the intermediate group there was everything from Stagis to quite good ones and in the advanced group, mainly high end vintage or new concertinas. But Noel himself encouraged all of us to try to acquire the best concertina-reeded instruments we could, as soon as we could, to better develop as players of Irish traditional music or any genre for that matter.

 

Second fact: you should know that perhaps you don't need the next level of concertina for what you want to do as a professional. I can't and certainly won't pass judgement on your needs and musical passions. All of which may be valid (as are mine). I'll just point out that a studio musician and composer as talented and accomplished as John Mock plays beautiful anglo concertina in his new CD "The Day at Sea". His concertinas of choice . . . .Morse Ceili's. You can get these from the Button Box with just a few months wait. Beautiful music is made all the time on concertinas that dont't have the esteemed names of Jeffries, Dipper, Wheatstone, Carrol, Wakker, or Suttner (et al). But if you judge you need one of these to meet your musical goals, that's great. I hope you meet your goal. But it is not the responsibility of any other musician to get you there.

 

Third fact: humans are complex. We do things for many motivations. Greed and status can be motivators, but so are just pure enjoyment of the look and sound of a concertina. Someone may want to own and play just one, someone may buy many to be able to enjoy their unique personalities and tonal qualiites in different venues. Others may acquire more concertinas than they "need" simply to collect them for their beauty. Each of these are quite valid reasons to own more than one "needs" with respect to any musical instrument, whether rare or common. So even if the instruments are not played, one shouldn't presume to judge the motivation for owning them as wrong.

 

Finally, amatuers at any level of skill should be encouraged to play to whatever level of ability they can reach by professionals. All professional musicians started as amateurs. Amateur comes from the Latin, "amo", "to love". We do what we do, not for pay, but out of love for the activity alone. Hopefully, a professional gets paid to do what he or she loves and so never loses the empathy for fellow amateurs.

Personally, I doubt I'll ever be paid to play. I'm an unskillful musician with no musical background. I have a terrible time playing consistently rhythmically. But I love this little instrument and can see a quantum leap in my ability since I purchased one of Frank Edgley's beautiful instruments. So I'm keeping at it, and if good fortune smiles on me perhaps someday I'll expand my concertina ownership to include one of the concertina-reeded instruments as well. I don't need to. The Edgley plays very well and sounds beautiful. But I might want to, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

[Wheastoned]

ok i don't know how anyone can argue with mccabe...he's right...are you people blind...all he's saying is that there are tons of totally useless players out there with awesome instruments...and its TRUE...go to any city or festival where there's lots of music and hey presto you'll see some useless player with a sweet instrument, and you just think to yourself,,, what the hell is that guy doing?!?! ...myself i just have a mid ranged concertina and i could really care less for vintage instruments in my opinion they are more hassle then they are worth...but a lot of people like them....you don't see useless players playing stradivarius violins...no they go only to the top players...so i dunno instresting arguments but i think if your going to go out and drop 8grand on a jeffries you really should ask yourself if you really need it... people get caught up in name brands too easily...

[m3838]

ok i don't know how anyone can argue with mccabe...he's right...are you people blind...all he's saying is that there are tons of totally useless players out there with awesome instruments...and its TRUE...go to any city or festival where there's lots of music and hey presto you'll see some useless player with a sweet instrument, and you just think to yourself,,, what the hell is that guy doing?!?! ...myself i just have a mid ranged concertina and i could really care less for vintage instruments in my opinion they are more hassle then they are worth...but a lot of people like them....you don't see useless players playing stradivarius violins...no they go only to the top players...so i dunno instresting arguments but i think if your going to go out and drop 8grand on a jeffries you really should ask yourself if you really need it... people get caught up in name brands too easily...

 

Valid point.

We shouldn't argue just because we think the premise will prevent us from freedom of aquring luxury items.

Interesting, what is the situation with super-duper violins? Why Stradivarius can't come to a beginner? What if I am rich and want to give one to my child as a toy?

Could that impossibility (if any) apply to top of the line concertinas? (I know, a Stradivarius at $100K+ and a Suttner at meager $10K is a difference, but are Stradivarius' instruments THAT much better that well made modern ones? It just can't be, given the precision of tools then and now.

[Paul Groff]

Hi all,

 

I enjoyed reading all the discussion here (to date). While I understand why some people have indicated they were offended by the initial post or subsequent comments, I think the passionate argument reveals a lot about the self-perceptions of some members of this forum, and that is always interesting to me.

 

My first reaction to the entire discussion is that the idea of a "concertina community" needs further examination, if it means anything more than the sum of people who post to this internet site. There is also the idea of an "Irish traditional music community" which I think is probably many different, only partially overlapping, communities with very different values and motivations.

 

For any kind of human community that is meaningful to me to have a future, it must invest heavily in the young. The adults and especially the most successful and established should be happy to sacrifice to provide opportunities, resources, knowledge and hope for the generations that will follow.

 

My personal view is that in many ways our current culture in the US (and perhaps elsewhere) often falls far short of honoring this obligation.

 

Some are happy to invoke the notion of community when in need themselves, but switch to more individualistic philosophy when they are asked to sacrifice.

 

A famous cartoon by Toles called "The reading of the will" expresses my thoughts on this issue concisely, bringing together the rampant exploitation of natural resources, the problems of pollution (I'll add extinction of species), and deficit spending as examples of intergenerational selfishness.

 

Back to concertinas and traditional music, we can all think of cases in which the adult do foster and support the young.

 

It makes me very happy when I hear of an older musician loaning or giving an instrument to start a young person along. Of course those with vocations as music teachers or instrument repairers make a tremendous investment of time and energy, perhaps for very little pay compared to what they could make in other fields. And, as has been noted, the strange economics of the concertina seem to suggest that the fine instruments are still underpriced so that makers are working hard for little pay (sometimes for the benefit of impoverished musicians, but sometimes for the benefit of very successful and shrewd-dealing amateurs who have another livelihood, don't need extra concertinas or even the extra money, but do enjoy turning them for a profit). Generous behavior of all these types, and more, has to be voluntary of course, but it is also recognized as a form of leadership in a community that values its solidarity and its future.

 

However, it has to be said that there are many whose involvement with the concertina and with traditional music seems to ask "what can this community/instrument/musical tradition do for me?" rather than "what can I do for this community/instrument/musical tradition?" Maybe this selfishness is normal for any hobby that adults choose. Certainly we all deserve to have some well-earned fun. My point, though, is that this activity really fosters community (in my definition) only when it is outgoing, supportive, and generous.

 

In a community not only do the adults sacrifice and give to help the young, but also the young respect and follow the experienced. I call it a community if those who claim to love a form of music make an effort to support the most promising young talents and foster their efforts and dreams - for example by creating opportunities for professional, paid work - rather than being happy only when they, the "fans," are playing.

 

I call it a community if those most talented (possibly professional) musicians have the opportunity to show their full integrity by developing their music to the highest levels. They repay the support and investment made in them by the rest of the community by undertaking this challenging, poorly-rewarded work and sharing its fruits, but also (to the extent possible, without compromising their art) by inviting respectful participation by all... by teaching the rest of us, trying to bring us along the path of understanding the music and playing a bit of it, as far as we can get.

 

If the adults, the financially more powerful, the majority of the community don't do everything within their power to support the most talented of the young, then the majority may reap a certain amount of contempt in return as the young talents come to their powers. But I have seen young people who *were* supported and helped by their community, and their gratitude and respect for the community repays the older members in many ways. Then in turn they will sacrifice and give to those coming next.

 

Maybe the notion of a concertina community is too loose or abstract for most to be worth major sacrifice to maintain it. I hope not.

 

Now, I don't know dpmccabe, whether she or he is young, old, good, or bad. But the forgoing discussion, and my experience hearing and knowing some brilliant young musicians, inspired these thoughts. I hope the young and brilliantly talented will try to be charitable and patient with the rest of us, when they do acquire their dream concertinas and can play rings around us. I hope that we more established members of the "community" are doing all we can now to deserve this patience later! But mainly, whether they will respect me or condemn me as a selfish old fogey, I hope the up-and-coming players, and those to come later, will find a way to continue the tradition of this instrument that I love so much, and bring it to new heights.

 

Paul

[Geraghty]

We shouldn't argue just because we think the premise will prevent us from freedom of aquring luxury items.

I haven't based my responses on any fear for my freedom - no one is going to implement external "worthiness" restrictions on goods in a capitalist society.

 

Rather, I do not see how the original premise of McCabe has any basis in reality. He's repeatedly stated "facts" without basis, and while I would be willing to believe that they are hypothetical situations generated for debate, I do not believe that they actually exist. I quote the following statements to illustrate the specific but unsubstantiated scenarios presented as fact by McCabe:

 

I have a problem with people who order an instrument who either know full well that they'll never be able to do that or have deceived themselves into thinking so. Most of these peoples' instruments end up sitting unused.

Many beginners, especially adults who were not already musicians, probably do not understand that they'll never be a top player worthy of a Jeffries. That takes an unbelievable amount of practice, dedication from an early age, and some genetic luck. And what about the instruments that aren't sold once they're essentially discarded? There are far too many of these and it's not easy to find them.

1. Casual fans of the concertina often buy expensive, top-of-the line instruments.

a. Beginner or mid-level instruments would be more than sufficient for these peoples' needs.

b. They want these instruments simply because they want the best, not because lower instruments aren't

sufficent for their needs.

c. Often, these concertinas go unused.

First, take your typical adult beginner. He plays the concertina as a hobby apart from his full-time job. Although he's been playing for around 10 years, he only practices for a few hours a week and does it just for fun. He's had plenty of time to wait for a Dipper and once received it becomes his instrument of choice. His midrange Lachenal was fine for him, but he wanted to have the nicest instrument he could get and could afford it with no problem. The concertina had always just been a hobby for him and he's since moved on to other pursuits. The Dipper sits in its case most of the time now.

 

Now, take a player who's only in his teens but has been playing for 6 or 7 years, regularly takes lessons from a top Irish player down at the Comhaltas branch and plays in sessions every week. He's become quite a good player and places well at the local Fleadh. Right now, he has a decent Wheatstone but is having trouble playing up-to-speed at the session. He listens to musicians like Tim Collins and concludes his instrument just won't let him play the notes and ornamentation as quickly and precisely as the musician with the Jeffries. And he's probably right. He knows that if he wants to become a player of that level, he needs to get an instrument like that but he has no luck in finding one. He could order one today and it would get there in about 5 years, but he knows he'll never be able to keep up with his fellow musicians who are playing flute or fiddle. When he goes to sessions and workshops around the country, he sees lots of players with nice instruments, but few of them are using them to their full potentials. He doesn't make much progress for a few years and decides that maybe a career playing concertina isn't very practical.

These are all opinion, not fact. The last quote contains two very nice little stories but again there is no fact there - McCabe is stating generalities that he have devised, presumably based on his own experiences. I would like to point out that the amateur in story #1 is scarcely a hobbyist if he is practicing several hours a week in addition to working a full time job, and if the teenager had gotten on a waiting list when he started noticing the inadequacies of his instrument, it would be nearly ready after the "few years" mentioned, and he would be happily continuing to progress on his new box.

 

McCabe - I don't know anything about you other than this thread, and I hope you have seen from my other posts that I am not interested in personal attacks or sarcastic remarks, but honest discussion.

 

That said - I feel that this whole situation of your feeling that people are undeserving of top instruments must stem from your own personal experience. I suspect that this additional quote from yourself sums up your current situation:

 

Professional musicians are thus unable to find top-of-the-line instruments, having a significant negative effect on their careers.

If this is the case - I am sorry that you are having difficulty. But I can't believe that you are the only professional musician who has ever had trouble procuring their perfect instrument of choice. If the situation is truly as dire as you say, then other professionals have gone through the same trials as you have. I can't believe that they would also have called for instruments to be in fewer "amateur" hands. As an earlier poster noted, Noel Hill actively encourages beginner and intermediate players to get the best instrument they can.

 

Unfortunately, any professional musician who feels the way about amateurs and 'hobbyists' as you seem to would not be a professional whom I would want to support by attending their workshops and concerts, or by purchasing their recordings. I could not applaud the efforts of someone who actively despises me for our common musical interest.

 

Perhaps unintentionally, you have portrayed yourself poorly here, where people are primarily known for the content of their posts rather than the nimbleness of their fingers. You have twenty-eight posts at this moment and seventeen of them are in this thread. Perhaps your efforts would be better spent pursuing your professional aspirations rather than mixing with us commoners. I sincerely wish you the best of luck.

[Wheastoned]

 

Valid point.

We shouldn't argue just because we think the premise will prevent us from freedom of aquring luxury items.

Interesting, what is the situation with super-duper violins? Why Stradivarius can't come to a beginner? What if I am rich and want to give one to my child as a toy?

Could that impossibility (if any) apply to top of the line concertinas? (I know, a Stradivarius at $100K+ and a Suttner at meager $10K is a difference, but are Stradivarius' instruments THAT much better that well made modern ones? It just can't be, given the precision of tools then and now.

 

ok m3838, obviously u know nothing about violin making...you don't use machines to build violins...u use hand tools...and stradivarius violins are top of the line they are also 3 or 400 years old...so its not like u can replicate that, precision tools have nothing to do with it.u think a violin made from a CNC machine is gunna sound good? lol..and strads are way more than 100k...also i'd say all or most strad's are owned by institutions that loan them out to worthy players...that's the difference...but sure if some rich ass wants to buy one and give it to his kid for a toy go nuts ...it doesn't affect my life and i could really care less...but it really shouldn't go into the hands of someone who doesn't have the skill to make it sing...its just wasted...just like these concertinas going into the hands of people who in all honesty should be playing stagi's...what everyone is missing the point on ...is that there are so few good concertina's out there ..THATS all...that's all the guy is trying to say...anyways violin making is completely different from concertina making so don't even try to go there...

[dwinterfield]

I'm interested in Paul's post because it touches on topics I've thought about since this thread started yesterday. I generally agree with what Paul said but have some other thoughts about "community".

 

I'm not a sociologist, but I think communities can be characterized, among other ways, as a group of individuals who have a shared interest in something and have some sort of shared norms or values related to that common interest. I also think that in this context we're discussing a voluntary community. In the context of McCabe’s original post it is probably addressing some mix of a concerina.net community, a larger concertina community, maybe an anglo concertina Irish music community.

 

I understood McCabe as making several suggestions about the norms this vague community - irresponsible conspicuous consumption of quality instruments, casual disregard for the well being of struggling professionals, and limited commitment to personal improvement on the concertina. I think McCabe is proposing that this vague community should adopt a norm through which early stage players would limit their concertina purchases to instruments that match their skill level.

 

The conclusion I draw from the responses is that McCabe's observations about the community’s norms were not particularly accurate. If this vague community exists, I think what McCabe sees as a normative failure is actually a normative success. As a beginner, I'm actively contributing time, money and energy. I continually encounter more experienced players who freely share their knowledge and enthusiasm. I appreciate it. They also end up with some of my money. I hope they find it useful. I hope they get more. I read McCabe's suggestion as leading to a decrease in the number of players, especially among adult beginners. I don't think that would be a good outcome. Communities, like people, do best when they learn, grow and share.

 

Also, as I think many of us have observed, the market distribution system on concertinas is imperfect. In my ideal world, concertinas would be as available and as cheap as penny whistles. I don't know how one might fix that. I do know that this medium of the internet has helped a lot. Through the net I've heard concertinas, learned about old concertinas, found the makers of new concertinas, purchased the cds and tutors about concertinas, discovered every concertina class I've been to and, of course, this discussion.

 

Time to go. My only other thought is that I hope McCabe sticks around and I hope he’s able to get the concertina he needs.

[m3838]

 

 

ok m3838, obviously u know nothing about violin making...you don't use machines to build violins...u use hand tools...and stradivarius violins are top of the line they are also 3 or 400 years old...so its not like u can replicate that, precision tools have nothing to do with it.u think a violin made from a CNC machine is gunna sound good? lol..and strads are way more than 100k...also i'd say all or most strad's are owned by institutions that loan them out to worthy players...that's the difference...but sure if some rich ass wants to buy one and give it to his kid for a toy go nuts ...it doesn't affect my life and i could really care less...but it really shouldn't go into the hands of someone who doesn't have the skill to make it sing...its just wasted...just like these concertinas going into the hands of people who in all honesty should be playing stagi's...what everyone is missing the point on ...is that there are so few good concertina's out there ..THATS all...that's all the guy is trying to say...anyways violin making is completely different from concertina making so don't even try to go there...

 

Yes, I have no clue of how violins are made. But I didn't say "Machine made violins". The tool is a tool, whether hand held or stationary. And the tools Stradivarius used were no match for what we can buy today in Home Depot. I appreciate the argument of aging, but aging along can't bring a violin to the level.

So my question is: what is the system of loaning Stradivarius violin to "worthy" musicians?

If it's decided by a commity from the institutions, owning the instrument, and if it's OK with those, who advocates free capitalist aquisition, then there is a conflict here. People are so upset, when a commity tells them: "you are not worthy of a Suttner", but seemingly have nothing against violinists hearing this.

If the reason is simply that violins don't touch us personally, than it misses the whole point of discussion, and is nothing but selfishness (a sin, btw, punished by death, for all you christians out there).

If the reason is the difference in price, it's a bit valid, but not 100%. How much is much?

May be it IS a good idea for some rich concertina mecenate to start purchasing expencive and top of the line concertinas and then loan them to worthy players.

This idea is fine with me and I would welcome such individual, because it makes sense.

Unclaimed Suttners and Dippers can be sold at auctions to whoever wants them. But the bulk would be loaned to pros.

I doubt it will ever happen.

Which leaves me with the conclusion, that concertina is not as worthy an instrument as violin, the music will not be written for it on a level of a violin, the school of playing will not be at the level of violin, and most of the players will be self tought amateurs, playing folk tunes. (Speaking about an Anglo only).

Fine with me, but my sorrow goes to the "professionals", it IS a tough situation, and good luck to you. Chances are you will not be employed by a Phylharmony with $60K a year.

[Boney]

There's a huge scale difference between the most desired violins and the most desired concertinas, and the culture that surrounds them. A Stradavarius costs in the millions, and rarely can even a top violinist afford one. Yes, part of that is name value, but science and technology can't duplicate the deep, mysterious, intuitive genius of the best instrument makers. They've honed their craft through decades of practice far beyond what can be explained or measured, they can't even explain their unconscious skills to themselves. (Science is just starting to attempt to measure the types of skills that are subconscious, and are finding that people can learn extremely complex rules, like those in language, even though they can't explain the rules at all on a conscious level. See the studies of Steven Pinker, for example). The quality of the tools is a very minor aspect -- and very fine tools have been available for hundreds of years. FAR better than you'd find at Home Depot, just not as fast, and maybe not as easy to use.

 

So a collector and music afficionado can satisfy his "selfish" desire to own a Stradivarius, and also gain "high society" prestige by loaning it out, and pleasure from hearing it played well. There are no concertinas that are unobtainable enough to need this sort of patronage. Noel Hill can afford, and has, as good an instrument as can be had. The resonances of a fine violin are much more complex and elusive than the qualities of even the best concertinas. And the concertina playing tradition comes nowhere close to the world of obsessively driven, "olympic-level" virtuosity that the classical tradition has, or the level of big-dollar, high-culture, status-seeking patronage.

[Dana Johnson]

Just a general note, Having made violins and violas prior to having started on concertinas, (One good enough for my teacher, though not implying that I was experienced enough to be any master) and being fairly familiar with that world, There are a good number of fantastic violins being made today which over years may end up sounding even better than many of the Strads ( and sound as good as many right now). The tools used are still quite similar, but there has been such a concerted effort over many years to understand the effects of it's construction on sound and playability that while making fine violins is still an high art, it is no longer a lost one. great luthiers exist now and good ones abound. A concert violinist may still lust after a Strad or Guarneri, but should still be able to find a violin that will allow full expression of their talents.

Dana

[bill_mchale]

I have read though this thread with interest and I think it is to some extent based on some false assumptions. The most serious of which is that you need a Jeffereies, Dipper or Suttner to have an instrument capable enough for a professional musician. Granted, I love the sound of a good vintage instrument, or of the best of the modern traditionally reeded instruments. But lets be honest, many of the accordion reeded instruments can be obtained relatively quickly and more importantly relatively affordably, and they can be very responsive and fast. Heck, I don't think anyone who has heard Tom Lawerence play his Edgleys notices anything lacking.

 

te second assumption that bothers me is that young players are more worthy of instruments than those of us who started later in life. I will grant that a young player is more likley to be a great player, and I will probably never be more than a good session player and may play the occasional ceili. But then again, my kids might be great players. Its us first generation adult players that lead to kids who are players.

 

As others have pointed out, the current demand for concertinas is why we have guys like Suttner, Wakker, Dipper, Thomas, Dana Johnson and Wally Carrol making traditionally reeded instruments.. its also why Andrew Norman, Frank Edgley, Bob Tedrow and Richard Morse making the accordion reeded instruments.

 

--

Bill

[BruceB]

This is one of the funniest threads I've read in a long time. It reads like some strange alternate Concertina.net where people forever debate a topic with no substance whatsoever. Ha, ha, ha. Anyone *play* something lately?

bruce boysen

[stevejay]

This is one of the funniest threads I've read in a long time. It reads like some strange alternate Concertina.net where people forever debate a topic with no substance whatsoever. Ha, ha, ha. Anyone *play* something lately?

bruce boysen

 

I agree.

 

Some people are natural hoarders, be it wine, books, records, CDs, accumulating much more than they actually need. Change "concertina" for ukulele or mandolins etc, and you will see a similar debate. Its a simple point that many people aquire a fine instrument, fine cars, fine clothes, simply because they can and will continue to do so. Is it fair? Maybe not. What an excellent high school ethics essay topic! Commodity x is in short supply, but collectors are consuming beyond blah blah..

 

Some "hoarders" also realize concertinas are good investments.

 

I'm hoarding a Bastari since my Rochelle arrived. A pity someone can't experience the old wheezer, yes I kept it all to myself

 

Steve

Edited October 29, 2006 by stevejay

[hjcjones]

I read this thread a couple of days ago and was flabbergasted at the premise of the argument. But I've been too busy to post the long reply I was going to, and many of my points have now been made by others, especially Dave Prebble. So I'll try to keep it short.

 

I think you're living in a fantasy world if you think there are lots of top-quality instruments sitting there unused. Outside a fairly small group of music enthusiasts, most people don't even know what a concertina is, let alone regard owning one as a status symbol. Within that group, then certainly there are people who own better instruments than their playing ability requires, but in my experience most of them are passionate about their instruments and committed to getting better on them. To say that they don't "need" those instruments is perhaps true, but to suggest that they don't deserve to have them is outrageous.

 

If you're really serious about being a pro (and being taken seriously as one) then stop whinging and do something about it. Even disregarding the scams, quality instruments turn up fairly frequently, on here and on Ebay. If memory serves, there was a recent thread about a Jeffries sold on Ebay which was bought by Chris Algar. If a dealer who has to make a commercial profit when he sells can manage to outbid the amateur enthusiasts, then as a pro, who will see long-term financial returns on your investment, you should be able to outbid a dealer. So why didn't you buy it?

 

Have you got in touch with all the dealers and told them you're looking for a top-quality professional instrument and willing to pay a good price?

 

Have you asked nicely on this forum if there's anyone who will lend or hire you a pro-quality instrument for a few years until you get to the top of the queue for a new instrument?

 

Becoming a professional (in any field) requires a big commitment in terms of money and time. It means making sacrifices, and taking risks. For most of us, the potential financial rewards of a career in music aren't sufficient to justify these, which is why there are many highly-skilled players who are amateur or at best semi-pro. If you want to go for it, then good luck to you. However, you appear to think that simply wanting to be a professional somehow entitles you to special treatment. Judging from both the number and tone of the replies, you seem to be in a minority of one.

[Paul Read]

Judging from both the number and tone of the replies, you seem to be in a minority of one.

Apart from a couple of people arguing round in circles

 

Thanks Howard I think you have summed things up very nicely. It sure stirred up a hornets nest though!

Edited October 29, 2006 by Paul Read