BruceB

Matthew, Since you're interested in the Wicki-Hayden system in general did you know there are other instruments in production that use that layout? The Array Mbira uses the exact arrangement of notes that Hayden concertinas use, but with the sharps and flats that are missing from the edges of the layouts on concertinas. 120 separate tines (like reeds in a concertina) on the most common 4 octave model. Rich Morse was interested in building something similar, but with improvements he had worked out. He felt the tines/reeds should be scaled differently (thicker and wider for low notes) for each octave. He had a whole list of ideas for how he'd design one and sent them to me, but I can't seem to find the email. The Harpejji uses a close but slightly different note layout. It's an isomorphic layout, but technically not a Wicki-Hayden arrangement. Whole steps as you move horizontally and half steps as you move vertically up each string. Then the Wicki-Hayden midi keyboards you already know about. I haven't played concertina for a while now, but am tempted by the newer Haydens out there. The Morse Beaumont looks really nice, but almost 4000 dollars is quite a high price for me to swing for what will likely be a secondary instrument (I play tenor guitar). I like the Concertina Connection Peacock too, and 2600 is easier to spend. I really like the Morse concertinas (I played an Albion english), they are nicely made, I love how they sound, and they are very light and feel agile. If I get a Hayden I'll probably wait until I can afford a Beaumont. The Button Box is only a several hour drive from my house, which is nice too, and would be a factor in my decision.

http://www.marcodi.com/ I thought this might be interesting to the duet players here. A stringed instrument with an isomorphic keyboard layout like a Hayden duet that you play by tapping. Seems to me like it would be an easy switch for a Hayden duet player. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has tried it. bruce b.

I am so sorry to hear this. I've been camping in the desert for the past 6 weeks and just found out an hour ago. Rich was one of the nicest and smartest people I knew. He posted last year on c.net about an instrument called an Array Mbira. I was fascinated and Rich and I exchanged a series of emails about it. He had already designed an improved version using what he had learned about free reeds and other musical instruments. He was planning to build one when he had the time and wanted to know if I wanted to be involved. This is just one example of what a creative force he was. I'll miss him, goodbye Rich. bruce boysen

>>What exactly is the layout on that? Those pictures make it seem unnaturally blue too. I suspect that's really more of a black, huh?<< The layout is standard Crane. There should be charts on this site somewhere. It is blue! The shot of the bellows is pretty accurate colorwise on my computer. Blue bellows, rosewood frames. The ends are rosewood too but very dark. bruce

Lachenal Crane 48b Crane #4934 in Salvation Army high pitch for sale. 1400 USD. I bought this as a project concertina from Chris Algar several years ago. It sat for a year and then I sent it to the Button Box to be restored. The tuning was touched up but left in high pitch. New springs, valves, pads and whatever else Bob Snope deemed needed. While not a Wheatstone, it now plays very well and sounds good. I like this Crane and was thinking about keeping it in case I ever get the urge to play again, but flute and uke are already enough. Check out the attached pics, it's a neat concertina for the price. It ended up costing me hundreds more than my asking price by the time Bob was done restoring it, but I think 1400 is fair for both parties. bruce boysen email b4bru@aol.com if interested.

I downloaded a couple of pictures. They should give a good idea of what I'm selling. Enjoy. I didn't realize it's kind of tricky to take pictures of a concertina. Chris Timson's are 100 times better than mine. How'd he do that? bruce boysen

>>wheatstone or jeffries?<< Ceemonster, I don't know. Pick a button in the accidental row that's different and I'll tell you which. bruce

Thanks for all the kind wishes everyone. What I wrote is the plan, I can't be sure it's actually going to happen exactly like that. A lot depends on if my son moves out with me. One person can live in a very confined space, two is a different story. If I'm alone it's going to be very tiny. http://www.resourcesforlife.com/groups/sma...ciety/index.htm Alone, I hope to be in a space a lot like Gregory Johnson (scroll down the page). I said off the grid which doesn't mean zero electricity. I'll have a very small system good enough for a couple of super efficient lights and enough to charge the laptop. Lots of cafes in town will have wi-fi, and I'll just go there and do my web stuff and email every day. Or at the college a ten minute bicycle ride from my house. I'll still have all the high tech in my life that I wish to have. I'm planning on a composting toilet. My water use will be limited to what I drink and maybe a couple more gallons per day for everything else. Heating isn't a problem, it doesn't get cold nor hot where I'm going and a Tiny Home will be effortless to heat there. >>Good luck, Bruce, but I for one don't envy you. If we all give up refrigeration and antibiotics and universities and the internet...there won't BE any future generations to admire us...or else they'll all be members of... The-Religion-whose-name-we-dare-not-Speak.<< I'm sorry but I don't quite understand most of this quote. I'll be living about a mile and a half from Humboldt University and plan on taking many courses there. As I said, I'll be on the internet every day, that's easy to do even when I'm bicycle touring and camping. Antibiotics I haven't used in many years, since I had Lyme disease. I think they have them in Humboldt County, Ca. Frankly, I doubt future generations are going to admire us, but that's another topic. Why no future generations? I haven't a clue what you mean by the nameless religion comment. Voldmort from Harry Potter? I don't think my plan is evil or devil worship or something. Check out the small house society for info on what I plan......and thank you for the good wishes. I'm looking at this as the most freeing possible thing I can do with my life. I hope I'm even more engaged out there, with like minded people, bicyclists, acoustic musicians, kayakers, the green/eco movement, social progressives and the community at large. It's not retreat, it's expanding and opening myself up to possibilities. It's enlightenment. bruce boysen

Um, the title is wrong, that would be a C/G anglo. I was looking at the fingering chart on p.5 of Edgley's Anglo Handbook and there is a typo where he calls it a C/D instrument. I copied that without thinking. bruce

Hi everyone, My life is undergoing a major change and I'm selling my concertinas, an english, anglo and crane. My kids are grown and I just bought a very small lot in rural, northern coastal California (Humboldt County) about 275 miles north of San Francisco. I'm going to put a Tiny Home on it, under 400 square feet, and perhaps a lot under 400 sq ft. The plan is for it to be off the grid, not even any running water or plumbing in the house. Anyway, I've begun selling a lifetime worth of posessions.......I hope not my *whole* lifetimes worth! I'm taking two bicycles (I won't have a car out there), two ukuleles, one Irish flute, some clothes, a few books and limited assorted stuff like a few tools and kitchen things. That's pretty much it. I still love concertinas, but I've been playing mostly uke for a while now and singing. I'm not sure why but I've made much faster progress on uke than I ever did on english concertina. I'm playing and singing lots of old standards, Tin Pan Alley, popular music of the 20's and 30's. That's what I currently prefer to listen to and play, but I still put Simon Thoumire on the cd player. Perhaps when I get settled in I might get another english concertina, or one of Wim's Hayden's if I can afford it. I'm 53 years old and it's strange, scary and exciting all at the same time to be completely, and I mean COMPLETELY changing my life. About the only part I'll be bringing with is the bicycles and ukes. I love riding and that won't change, in fact I'll be riding more! I've even recently completely changed my diet and never eat several of the former staples I lived on. I eat no (as in zero) refined carbs or sugars, no pasta, no bread, not even orange juice. Just whole foods, low glycemic fruits and vegetables, wild salmon or other wild caught fish, and a few nuts. The result has been amazing and transformational. Anyway, that's why they are for sale on the buy and sell page. I hope to get out there next summer. There are lots of loose ends to clean up first. bruce boysen

SOLD! Standard Tedrow 30 button C/G Anglo concertina for sale. Perfect new condition, maybe 5 *hours* of playing time on it. Mahogony ends. I received this in a trade with Bob for an excellent Irish flute and a Ukulele. I have never played anglo and just spent a few hours noodling around on it working out a couple simple melodies. Looks and is basically brand new, not even slightly broken in yet. The action feels excellent to me and it has a loud, pretty tone. 1,500 USD sorry, it's sold. bruce boysen b4bru@aol.com

SOLD! I'm selling my Wheatstone Crane 48 button concertina, #35429. I bought it around two years ago from Chris Algar of Barlycorn Concertinas. He completely refurbished it, new pads, valves, tuning, straps and new bellows. It plays great and has an excellent beautiful tone. More mellow than strident and fairly loud. Chords blend very nicely. It's very pretty and the wooden ends are in nice shape with no nail gouging by the buttons. price= 2,200 USD, sorry, it's sold. bruce boysen email me at b4bru@aol.com

SOLD! Morse Albion #277, black ends, in perfect condition for sale. Has an air button. Great, fast player like all the Albions. This was my primary concertina for about two years so it's starting to get nicely played in but has no visable wear. Slight tarnish on the brass fittings, otherwise as new. Price=1,400 USD. Sorry, it's sold. Lots of people know me here, btw. bruce boysen..... email me at b4bru@aol.com

This is one of the funniest threads I've read in a long time. It reads like some strange alternate Concertina.net where people forever debate a topic with no substance whatsoever. Ha, ha, ha. Anyone *play* something lately? bruce boysen

http://www.concertinaconnection.com/wakker%20english.htm Hi Everyone, Just saw the pictures of the new Wakker E2 concertina at The Concertina Connection site. I love how it looks. The spruce ends are beautiful. I'd love to hear it. Perhaps Wim will have sound files up soon. The three different EC models offer a nice range of tone and choice. The E3 will have 37 buttons and be smaller and lighter than the first two. I have a personal interest in seeing this one when it's done! I almost never use the top octave on a 48b, and prefer the 37b. I'll gladly give up the notes to get a smaller and lighter instrument. bruce boysen

I was just playing the Black Boxes CD. What an excellent recording this is! Track 13 reminded me of the recent thread about playing Irish Trad on the english concertina. The track starts with the trad. "The Concertina Reel", followed by a Sarah Graves written tune called "Another Concertina Reel". The neat thing is she plays the first one in an "anglo concertina" style and the second one playing her EC as an english concertina. I loved the track and also found it revealing. The two tunes sound very different. For me, it's a clear example of why the EC sounds better when you don't try to force it to sound like something it's not. The first tune is fine, but the second really comes alive and her concertina sings on it. This is a perfect example of how to play a reel powerfully and beautifully on an EC and stay within the tradition. Track 15, Autumn Leaves, is also wonderfull and a perfect example of how to play EC in a band setting. This is my favorite track. Great fiddle and EC interplay! I'd love to hear how people feel about this recording. What do you think of track 13? bruce boysen

Hi Ratface, Interesting. Does this mean that you feel Simon *IS*trying to imitate an anglo in some way? I think he uses the bellows just the way an EC player would. When I've heard EC players trying to sound like a Itrad anglo player they do a lot more quick bellows changes like an anglo player does. I also don't get the feeling his ornamentation is based on anglo ornaments, but instead gives his playing that unique Simon sound. His playing on the On Safari CD does seem to have less of his lightning quick repeated notes when he's blending with the fiddle. This is a minor point, but it would be fun to get Simon's take on it. bruce boysen

Hi everyone, I just received two CD's, both by the Scottish band, Keep It Up. Simon Thoumire is one of the muscians in the band. On Safari is great, I haven't listened to the other one yet. Simon's playing is much more traditional on this recording for the most part. He's very much a part of the band, he and the fiddle player, Ellidh Shaw out front, with guitar and bouzoukie backing them up. Anyone interested in playing traditional music on the EC should give this a listen. I never get the impression that Simon is trying to sound even slightly like an anglo. Here is a recording that shows one way of playing the EC in a trad setting. Excellent stuff. bruce b.

Bill writes..... >>Now regarding, the one great musician for the English... I don't think that person has arrived on the scene yet. Yes there are some very talented musicians who play Irish on the English. But as thread has shown, none of them have recorded a CD. Let be honest, recording music is how a musician becomes known. There are 70 or 80 years worth of recordings of Irish Music on the Anglo from William Mullaly (sp?) up through the current crop of players. Nothing comperable yet exists for the English. .....snip..... I know I am going to get accused of bashing the English again for this post, I am sorry, but that is just they way I feel. I don't hate the English, I just haven't heard anything done on the instrument that to mind really attempts to carve a niche for itself. Playing like an Anglo really doesn't count... as I said, we have Anglos already, why try to make another instrument sound like it? Want the English to Break out, get a really talented English Player to release a CD of ITM that is authentic to the Music but played in a way that simply couldn't be done on the Anglo (My guess is that since the English was designed to take violin parts in classical music, that emulating the Fiddle might be a way to go). << Bill, I don't think what you wrote sounds like bashing. I agree with it. There are great players of the EC that have recorded, but not any I know of that I'd call ITM players. I think Simon Thoumire could make the recording, but he's just so unique, Scottish, and while he has roots in traditional music his playing has branches in jazz and elsewhere. Again, it's not ITM, but if you listen to his recording, The Big Day In, a lot of it isn't that far removed from ITM to my ear. He clearly isn't trying to sound like an Anglo. It would be interesting to hear what Scottish trad players have to say about Simon. He's a huge talent with world class concertina chops with a totally unique style. The Big Day In has more of a trad approach than his other recordings. Why is it that many EC players are all over the place in terms of the music they play? Some EC recordings as examples of this. Simon Thoumire obviously is a perfect example. He goes from pretty traditional Scottish to full on jazz to???? His first recording is pretty wild stuff. I recall Joel Cowan reviewing it and wanting to have Simon turn it down a little. It apparently made Joel feel like he was slipping into "old fogeydom", or something like that. Heh, heh. This is who I want to be when I grow up. Dave Townsend, "Portrait on an English Concertina". This is an amazing, exceptional recording. Totally different than Simon, and an example of what can be done on the EC if you have about 15 fingers. I need to dig this one out as it's been a while since I've played it. Straight classical, music hall and english folk music and maybe something else too. Rachel Hall and Simple gifts. The CD I have is excellent. It's more a sampling of different traditions. Another perfect example of never staying within one tradition. I love hearing Rachel play when sitting ten feet away at NESI. She's another talent who can play excellent trad, lots of em. I could keep going...... I'm not saying this is good or bad, more an observation and perhaps an explanation why there isn't more good EC ITM recordings. I know many anglo players probably play lots of styles too, but in general it seems like the Anglo players I know tend to stick much more within one tradition than EC players do. I do the same thing. I play some ITM, music hall (Dancing With Ma Baby!), and other stuff too. I think I'd be a lot better if I'd just pick one thing and stick with it, but it ain't gonna happen. Even worse, now I have to choose between picking up my EC or Butterworth Duet (Crane). As to Noel Hill telling EC players to play ornaments all in one hand......wow. I'm stunned. This seems so wrong to me, and it's not going to result in crisper ornaments, if anything the opposite. I'd have to start over to do this. I do cuts both ways depending on the note before the cut, but all my rolls are done with the cut and tap on the opposite hand. I love doing them this way and I can finally get them to sound how I wish. I can even do scales of rolls this way up and down the keyboard, great fun, but not something to put in a tune.....though it might be funny to do it once. bruce boysen

I've been waiting for a post from NESI. What's happening on Sunday this year? Is it a full day with some people lingering until Monday? bruce boysen

Bill writes..... >> True long rolls generally aren't done on the Anglo because they are just rather awkward. As a result Anglo players have ways of faking them (Which I noted in my first post on the thread). << I've listened to lots of anglo recordings and the anglo players I've heard sure have figured out how to make a roll sound good. Again, if it sounds like a roll, it's a roll. The concept of a "fake roll" is absurd, it doesn't matter how you get there, all that matters is how it sounds. On an english it's very easy to do a roll exactly like you'd do it on a flute or whistle and have it sound good. I do see how this might be a problem on an anglo. >>Yes we will, because to my ears the sound is distinct.. an up and down thing going that just isn't there with the repeated note. The repeated note will work fine in the tune, and won't clash with what other people are playing, but to my ears at least, it doesn't sound like roll.<< Again, perhaps it's an anglo specific thing you're talking about, that's why we disagree. On flute & whistle there is no up and down thing going on, it's all on one note (if you can hear the cut & tip well enough to get a sense of their pitch you're playing them way too long, at least that's how I learned em). On an english concertina I think a short roll done by repeatedly hitting the same button sounds very much like a short roll on a flute. The more I play around with Irish tunes on the english the more I realize how perfectly suited it is for Itrad. I'll stop posting here as the original question was about rolls on an anglo. bruce

>>With respect, a triplet like that won't sound like a roll. It might capture the rhytem of a role, but its sound will be distinct. A short roll definitely will involve two notes, the note, a higher note (or perhaps a lower note) and the note again.<< Bill, we'll just have to disagree here. Not only will it work to use the same note, but in my opinion it sounds more like a short roll on flute or whistle, which is my backround. The point is, there is no set way to do them and all that matters is that the result sounds like how you want your roll to sound. >>Whatever we decide to call a roll is not really going to be considered a roll by the flute and the fiddle community.<< Sorry, but again I think this is incorrect. Most of them would accept it just fine, and in my experience, they do. Perhaps the difference is I'm playing them on an english concertina, and while I've read and listened to how they're done on an anglo I take the wider view that the point is to sound correct within the Irish tradition. Perhaps some anglo players are limiting themselves too much here? A long roll on a concertina, at least on the english, sounds just fine IMO, when done much the same way you'd do it on a flute. I do it this way, sometimes using the exact same notes I'd use on a flute. A lot of times I also do it by a rapid repeat of the same note. If the timing is right not only does it sound like a roll, but I personally think it sounds great to use the repeated note technique. I really doubt most people playing other instruments are going to notice or object if you have the timing down. bruce

>>The sequence you describe is not a roll and as Jim pointed out it contains no grace notes. What's more, it could only be called a triplet if it occurs in the space of a quarter note (crotchet), as a substitute for what is called a "short roll" on most instruments (dunno about the tina). If it is used in place of a "long roll", you are merely playing three eighth notes (quavers), so you couldn't call it a triplet, a roll, or any other ornament. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, though. Many accordion players do this to great effect. If you grace the second of these three eighth notes, however, you could call it a tina or box player's "fake roll" - maybe it has a real name, I don't know, but it sounds great. Miko Russell did an analagous thing in place of a roll on the tin whistle, probably because he spent most of his life listening to concertinas. << Whether it's a roll or not has nothing to do with the actual notes you articulate the roll with. The sequence of the same note quickly repeated three times with different fingers on the same button is typically a short roll. If it sounds like a roll it's a roll. Even on the same instrument there are wide variations in exactly how to play a roll. It's all in the timing and the resultant sound you get. Calling the finger articulations in Itrad "grace notes" is a bad idea. They are not "notes" in the sense that they have no time value and are not meant to be heard as having a specific pitch. They are not melodic variations since their pitch is not the point, but instead are rhythmic articulations. http://www.greylarsen.com/store/catalog/pr...;products_id=25 Grey Larsen's above book has a fantastic discussion of rolls. While this book is written for flute and whistle it's a terrific resource for anyone interested in Irish Trad. bruce boysen

Dirge wrote..... >>I understand. you're going to concentrate on the Crane, aren't you? Wise man. Don't be shy.<< I'm going to split my time between the Butterworth duet and the english. I love the rich full sound that comes so easily on a duet, but I also love the quick, expressive, endlessly agile feel of the english. I know many don't agree, but I personally am never going to be able to play fast Itrad (among other things) on crane as expressively and effortlessly as it's possible to do on an english. The Butterworth opens up the universe of counterpoint, fistfulls of chords in one hand and melody in the other, the world of complex harmony that's hard on the english. They compliment each other and I'm going to find the time to play both. bruce boysen

Hi Everyone, I just noticed that there are more replies. I've been playing the crane lots and I'm glad it didn't go in a trade. There is a very good chance I'll be moving out of (Morris County) New Jersey, USA. Right now, Arcata, California is the prime destination. Check it out sometime on the web. It's one of my favorite places that I've been to. Picture the Forest Moon of Endor from Star Wars to get an idea of the area. This is also my favorite coastline in the USA, amazingly beautiful and in places very secluded. LaGrande, Oregon is another possibility. Very different than Arcata. It's more high desert than rainforest. Much colder in winter, it never gets cold in Arcata. There are palm trees in Arcata. Several MILLION acres of preserved land in the La Grande area. Both are small, College towns. This is a requirement. Arcata is progressive, hip, pro environment, anti Bush & war. All these are important to me. About mountain biking. NW New Jersey is a surprisingly good place to ride if you're a local and know where to go. Some great singletrack. Still, compared to places out west, riding is limited and it's way too developed to feel like you're in the middle of nowhere. bruce boysen