
hjcjones
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About hjcjones
- Birthday 07/15/1954
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https://www.howardjones.me.uk/
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Male
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Interests
Traditional music and song, especially English.
I play Anglo: a C/G Crabb 40 key, a Dipper D/G 31 key, and Lachenal F/C baritone. Besides concertina, I play melodeon, guitar, hammered dulcimer and recorder, and sing.
I used to be in the ceilidh band "The Electropathics" and now play with Albireo -
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Cheshire, UK
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Yes. They're not "guitar chords", they're just chords. Whilst whoever arranged them probably had guitar in mind, and may even have printed little guitar fingerboard pictograms, chords are just groups of notes and will work for any instrument. Just be aware that, depending on the key, some chords may not have all the notes available in the same bellows direction. This is not usually a problem if you are playing in C or G (on a C/G anglo) but may be a problem in other keys. Again, it's OK to simplify, if you can only play two notes of a chord that will usually be enough. A chord chart which shows only one direction is not much use. If you google you should find others which show both directions, for example: Phil Williams Chord Charts – Anglo Concertina Playgroup
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I've noticed that whenever anglo players get together it isn't long before we're trying out each other's instruments, and very quickly come across notes where we don't expect them. The "standard layouts" are only starting points which players often modify to suit their own requirements.
- 81 replies
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- learning anglo
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Whilst the availability of cheap (usually German) concertinas had a great deal to do with the anglo's popularity, it is not as simple as saying that the anglo was used for folk and the EC for classical. There are plenty of old photos of English traditional musicians playing ECs, for example this rapper side from 1921. This has continued into the modern revival, and I know at least as many players of EC as Anglo on the English folk scene. It is only in the last few decades that the concertina really took off in Irish music. After its heyday in Ireland in the 19th and early 20th Centuries it fell into decline. When I was playing mainly Irish music in the 1970s and 80s I didn't really associate concertina with Irish music and hardly ever heard it used for that. As far as I can recall I came across only one player in the Irish style, at a session at Whitby Festival in the 1980s (that I can remember it shows how unusual that was). It was only when I joined concertina.net that I became aware of how popular it had become among players of Irish music. That has coincided with widespread global interest in ITM (and not just among the Irish diaspora) and has probably driven up the demand for anglos, which in turn has pushed up the price compared with other systems. It makes sense to choose anglo if you want to play ITM, as there is now an established style with a wealth of teaching material. It likewise makes sense to choose EC to play classical, because it mimics the violin and the buttons map easily to written notation. But they should only be considered as guidelines. Play what instrument suits you best, and play whatever you like on it.
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Agreed. Although it didn't work that way for me. I first heard concertina played by Tony Rose on an LP. I played guitar and was getting into folk music, and this got me thinking that the concertina was a proper folkie instument. I knew absolutely nothing about concertinas, but my local music shop had one in the window, so I bought it. It turned out to be an anglo - Tony Rose played EC. But that turned out to be the right choice for me, and I've never been tempted by EC. Nevertheless, if you were first attracted to the instrument by a particular player then that's a good place to start.
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In reply to Diss, please don't underestimate the difficulty in playing in "strange" keys, especially with chords. Whilst all the individual notes are there, the ones you need to build a chord may not all be available in the same direction. However there are ways to compromise and work around this. On a C/G it is easy to play in the home keys of C and G with full chordal accompaniment, while F and D are slightly more difficult but very playable. Em, Am and Dm are also straightforward. To play in other keys is venturing into advanced playing, and is an area where many very competent players don't go, because they have no need to play in those keys. But they are possible. Don't be afraid to alter the key of a tune to transpose it into one which sits better on your instrument. This is only a problem when playing with others who prefer a different key. For actual songs with words this may be essential, to put it into a key which suits the singer's voice. I repeat my advice that if you think you will regularly want to play in a wide range of keys then possibly the EC might be a better choice. If you get the opportunity I would encourage you to try one. However, since it was the anglo which calls you then I would say stick with it. I find I can play most of the music I want on it (mainly English folk, including some early Playford). I get around the keys issue by transposing, and I have instruments in G/D, F/C and Bb/F as well as C/G. I admit this is the lazy, as well as expensive, solution and I'm sure if I really put my mind to it I could play in more keys on the C/G. But, much as I love playing concertina, I play other instruments too and have other interests outside music. I guess the point of all this rambling is that whatever system you choose it should be possible find a way to play most things on it, although some may come more easily than others. The system all have strengths and weaknesses, as does any instrument. Whist you may take pointers from the type of music or from inspiring players, ultimately what matters most is to find a system you are comfortable with, and that can only come from trying it. Value for money is of course important, perhaps especially at the budget end, but it is more important that it is spent wisely.
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Up to a point. The 30-button C/G anglo covers almost exactly the same range as a 48-button treble EC, and is for all practical purposes fully chromatic over the shared range - there are two or three gaps at the extremes but I doubt many EC players use those notes either. In the middle range where tunes are mostly played it is fully chromatic. It is probably true that it is easier to play in different keys on EC. The EC keyboard has a very logical linear layout, as one might expect from one designed by a physicist. The logic of the anglo is more apparent in one's hands than on paper, but it is easy and even intuitive to play in the home keys. However playing in other keys can be more challenging, requiring not only more complex fingering patterns but also unintuitive bellows changes, and becomes more so the further away around the circle of fifths one gets from the home keys. The reason most anglo players (myself included) struggle to play in other keys is that we have little need to. Most of us play folk music which is usually in G, D, C or A, and we focus on playing in those keys. However for those players who are so minded it is quite possible to play in other keys. In particular, South African Boeremusiek is played in a great number of keys, including Ab, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F and G, although they usually use 40-button instruments. Other anglo players (like myself) get around the problem by shamelessly transposing tunes into more friendly keys, and by acquiring more instruments in different keys. You can never have too many concertinas, a view which is obviously shared by a number of EC players I know, with far less excuse! The point I am making is that the anglo is just as capable of playing in any key or mode as EC, and any apparent failing is on the part of its players rather than the instrument itself. However I am forced to admit that if you expect to play in a lot of keys, or to play very chromatic music, you will probably have an easier time on an EC or perhaps a duet.
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Which end of England is that? There may be players nearby who'd be willing to help.
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The EC, even a 30-button Jackie, is more chromatic than a 20 button anglo so is potentially more versatile, but it is not as simple as that. There are reasons why the anglo became so popular, and it wasn't just that these were originally cheaper. Whilst it is true to some extent that it doesn't matter which system you start with, some styles of music are better suited to certain systems. If you were inspired by a particular sound or style then choosing a different system may prove to be unsatisfactory. Nowadays, as you have found, ECs tend to be slightly cheaper than anglos. However this only represents value for money if the instrument will do what you want. I wouldn't base my choice principally on the bellows. Of course, more folds is usually better, especially with anglos (although too many folds can become unwieldy). However there is more to air management than the size of bellows. With the anglo, this is achieved by the use of reversals (where the same note can be played in the opposite direction on a different button) but mainly by active use of the air button. My first proper concertina was a 26-button with brass reeds and rather leaky five-fold bellows, but it taught me how to use the air button effectively while playing (not just grabbing air between phrases), which has stood me well when I moved on to better instruments. Why were you originally looking at anglos? Was this inspired by a particular type of music, or by a particular player/s? My advice would be to decide what system you want to play, and then get the best you can afford. If the C# is important to you, go to a reputable dealer who has a good stock of instruments. You may find they have 21 or 26 button anglos which are not shown on their website. Of course, there is a risk when you take up any instrument that it may not suit you. Whichever system you choose, you may find that you don't get on with it - as Mike Franch pointed out, some people's brains can't cope with the push-pull of an anglo, and others (including mine) can't handle alternating between sides on an EC. If you have an opportunity to hire or borrow an instrument that may help you decide. If not, then take a chance anyway. You can always sell it and try a different system if you really don't get on with it. Finally, don't be so sure you will never upgrade. These things can become addictive.
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I Am A Poor Wayfaring Stranger Anglo Song?
hjcjones replied to Jody Kruskal's topic in Teaching and Learning
It does go nicely on anglo. I prefer this version by Rhiannon Giddens and Phil Cunningham: -
Geoff, you have previously informed me that my own instrument (18321) was also intended for South Africa. It appears that quite a few instruments made around then never made it out there. Can you shed any light on why this happened? Was it simply that if a customer came in looking for an instrument they would be sold whatever was in stock, even if it was part of an order?
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Not on concertina, but I have a Streb MIDI melodeon which allows me to program alternative keyboard layouts, and I've experimented with G min/D min. Playing along the rows is fine, and my brain can handle the concept of playing a mojor fingering and getting minor notes. However playing the normal minor patterns doesn't give the relative major keys but something weird and modal-ish. I haven't used it for real ie at a gig. I could envisage using it for something strictly in G min or D min, but once you start to wander from those it completely messes up how you would usually play in standard layout. It would really require me to learn totally different fingerings. I would guess that this is even more true on concertina, and if you're going to do that you might as well learn them for standard layout. For me on the melodeon it's a bit of fun, but not really that useful. However Richard presumably finds it useful.
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E minor (anglo, harmonic style)
hjcjones replied to Leah Velleman's topic in General Concertina Discussion
It's simply that most (but not all) notes are duplicated, but on different buttons. They're not necessarily less intuitive, especially once you've become familiar with the keyboard and aren't restricted to playing strictly up and down the rows. Have a look at https://anglopiano.com/, pick a few different notes and see where they appear in different places on the keyboard and in different directions. What this means in practice is that there may be two or even more ways of fingering a phrase by choosing the other direction, and this will use different buttons which may (or may not) be easier. On anglo there are always several ways to skin the same musical cat. -
E minor (anglo, harmonic style)
hjcjones replied to Leah Velleman's topic in General Concertina Discussion
G D and Am are only easier because you've become familiar with them through playing a lot. It didn't happen overnight. Play more in Em and it will come. Playing in a new key is an exploration. As you play more you start to find the alternative fingerings and different ways of playing the chords, and then you will be able to busk tunes and find the notes and chords you want. That arrangement wasn't improvised and it took time to work out, but it started with me playing the tune by ear and "banging out the chords", and then going from there. You should find most of the left hand notes in the direction you want. Most of the useful chords in Em can be played in both directions, apart from C major, and most of the notes you need on the right hand can also be found in both directions. If it's not working for you in one direction, try the other. You asked for a favourite trick: one of mine (and it applies to playing in any key) is to let the choice of left-hand chords dictate the bellows direction and then find the right-hand fingerings to match that, rather than work out the melody on the right and then try to fit the chords and bass runs to the bellows direction that imposes. -
E minor (anglo, harmonic style)
hjcjones replied to Leah Velleman's topic in General Concertina Discussion
Both Am and Em can be good keys (Em on G/D uses the same fingering as Am on C/G). I second what Jody says about "folding" the tune to avoid going too far into the lower octave, but don't be scared of going onto the left hand for a few notes either. I wouldn't get too hung up about chopping either. Irish-style players try to avoid it as it can interfere with the rhythm or ornamentation, but they're usually playing a lot faster than harmonic-style where you may have a bit more space. Of course it should be avoided if it affects the rhythm of the piece, but sometimes it may be the easiest way to play something. Alternatively, try looking for reversals - sometimes playing a phrase in the other direction of the bellows can offer a way around a tricky bit of fingering. Here's the Presbyterian Hornpipe played in Em on a 31-button G/D. The last four bars of the B part should go down if you play it as written, but I've shifted them up an octave to keep it on the right hand (all bar one low E which is played on the left). It does involve playing across all three rows (and not just for the accidentals) and uses reversals to avoid clumsy bellows changes, and it does drop onto the left hand for a few other notes besides the one I mentioned. Perhaps this is what you mean by "fancy fingerings", but they're fairly straightforward once you get used to them, and may also be useful when playing in G. No chopping needed. https://soundcloud.com/howardj/presbyterian-hornpipe?si=4e046257a9784cd099cf8a41b111d004&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing&fbclid=IwY2xjawGR44hleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHUDftYjQj2zu1LAO2_rh_wRkrGNvOVwz8sl1MXaePt8UinmWqY_kJJ6ZKA_aem_e1kCkIVEUsaL2OcOK9stRg PS tell your melodeon-playing friends to be more adventurous. A D/G melodeon can also play in A dorian and B minor, although they may have to fudge the Bm chord depending on how the left hand is tuned. -
Now that would really confuse me