Raised ends versus flat ends

[Snedder]

Hi all, 

I'm pretty new to playing the anglo concertina and still have a lot to learn.  I see lots of descriptions of instruments as having either flat ends or raised ends. I wondered what the difference is here and what the purpose is?  Is it about tone? Ergonomics? Aesthetics?  All of the above?

 

Snedder

[malcolm clapp]

Never really thought about it before.

Probably all of the above, plus economics; flat ends would presumably be less expensive to produce.

And don't forget domed ends, or is that just a sub-set of raised ends?

[alex_holden]

I think the reason for it is mostly cosmetic. Where it can get a bit complicated ergonomically is if the buttons and hand rails are not also raised by the same amount as the end plate (imagine if you started with a conventional flat-end instrument and added a small extra board that only raised up the surface immediately around the buttons).

 

1 hour ago, malcolm clapp said:

And don't forget domed ends, or is that just a sub-set of raised ends?

 

As Malcolm suggests, there are different forms of raise. Sometimes it is a small flat-topped plateau around the buttons with fairly steep sides. Sometimes nearly the whole end plate is gently curved. I don't recall hearing the latter type called domed ends before, but that is a good description for it.

 

Both metal and wooden ends can be raised but the process involved is a bit different.

 

Here's an example of some plateau-style raised metal ends I made (before cutting the fretwork):

 

Here's an example of a Wheatstone Aeola with domed wooden ends:

https://theboxplace.co.uk/product/aeola-48-ec/

 

I think the domed shape works better for an English because the buttons are fairly central in the end plate. If you try to make an Anglo with domed ends, the buttons wind up very off centre in the dome and it looks a bit odd. I've been playing with an idea for a modified dome shape that has a steep slope around the top end and a very shallow slope below the palm of the hand.

[alex_holden]

28 minutes ago, HansQ said:

Why bother with making raised/domed ends at all ?? Is it really that cosmetically favourable or on demand by your customers ?

 

My instruments are all bespoke and I make what my customers ask for (within reason and the bounds of what is physically possible). The majority of them don't ask for raised ends. If they do, I charge more simply because the ends are more labour intensive to make. I don't have different quality tiers like vintage Lachenal/Wheatstone where a costly instrument with fancy cosmetic features might be expected to also have better quality internal parts than their cheaper, plainer-looking instruments. I believe my customers who have ordered raised ends did so mostly because they had seen other instruments with raised ends and liked their cosmetic appearance.

[Richard Mellish]

3 hours ago, alex_holden said:

I think the domed shape works better for an English because the buttons are fairly central in the end plate. If you try to make an Anglo with domed ends, the buttons wind up very off centre in the dome and it looks a bit odd. I've been playing with an idea for a modified dome shape that has a steep slope around the top end and a very shallow slope below the palm of the hand.

I'm not sure which term (domed or plateau) would apply to my Wheatstone (Dickinson) Anglo. The ends are raised over a large area including under the handle.

[alex_holden]

28 minutes ago, Richard Mellish said:

I'm not sure which term (domed or plateau) would apply to my Wheatstone (Dickinson) Anglo. The ends are raised over a large area including under the handle.

 

Thanks, that looks like the domed style I mentioned. Is the raised area circular?

[alex_holden]

1 hour ago, HansQ said:

Ok, I fully sympathize with that view...but still I cant help wondering about cosmetic values with musical instruments, having some externally battered, but internally "perfect" boxes myself.

Probably I wouldnt mind if they were good looking as well ! One thing puzzles me though...are people ordering new concertinas asking for looks in greater extent than sound qualities or maybe ergonomic ones ? "Weight" seems to be a common concern in forum discussions, but maybe due to some misunderstandings. Size possibly of greater importance.

 

I don't want to have this debate again. Let's stick to discussing raised ends.

[wunks]

My Jeffries duet has raised ends around the button area.  My Wheatstone JD does not.  This results in about a 16th of an inch difference in button height above the surface.  The Jeffries is easier to play, the Wheatstone stiffer.  I recall a discussion here about a builder incorporating nearly flush buttons (Muller?).  Perhaps playability has something to do with it.

[SteveS]

Having made both flat and raised ends, raised ends are harder to make and much more labour intensive.

[John Wild]

My opinion (just my opinion, with no evidence to support it) is  that raised ends make little difference in themselves.

However, I believe that most instruments with raised ends are those at the higher end of the quality range, eg, aeolas and edeophones.

I am open to correction on this if there is evidence to the contrary.

I am writing as a player, not as either a maker or repairer.

Edited January 15 by John Wild
typing correction

[d.elliott]

The raised end was supposed to provide a better sound 'projection' and as such was a more expensive option on the better instruments. I have never been convinced that it makes any real difference, other than to add to price and these days, saleability. 

[fred v]

I had studied the Muller idea which Holden built for him. The big deal with the buttons being that they don't stick up as high as is normal. This makes the button, when pushed, go down flush to the end plate. I accomplished the same thing by making 1/8" thick plates that fit over the button grouping. The feel of the buttons is now amazing!! I can slide my fingers up a fifth much easier and also cross finger easier. I am just starting on the Muller journey and still use the original wrist straps and thumb/pinky rests. I'm very happy with this setup and may never go further. I have two Wheatstone EC's set up now. As you can see I also removed the buttons and reeds that I don't use for ITM which lightened the instrument noticeably.

[wunks]

1 hour ago, fred v said:

I had studied the Muller idea which Holden built for him. The big deal with the buttons being that they don't stick up as high as is normal. This makes the button, when pushed, go down flush to the end plate. I accomplished the same thing by making 1/8" thick plates that fit over the button grouping. The feel of the buttons is now amazing!! I can slide my fingers up a fifth much easier and also cross finger easier. 

This is a large part of it.  Shifting hand position and sliding fingers around is essential to the Jeff duet.  The taller buttons on the Wheatstone will tip away from the fingers and  then bind to resist the sideways/down vector pressure.  Thanx for this insight.

 

Edited January 15 by wunks

[Richard Mellish]

Alex asked whether the raised area on my Wheatstone (Dickinson) Anglo is circular. Yes, it is.

[Alex West]

The raising or doming of the ends has nothing to do with button height above the end when the button is pressed. Buttons can be made shorter and felt washers can be removed (or added) to adjust the depressed height to suit the player.

 

I believe that the Jeffries and Lachenal New Model raised ends were both made based on a circular mould (but I only have a limited sample). In both cases the surface around the buttons is flat.

 

There is a slight weight reduction in having raised ends but I doubt this is significant.  They do look cool though 😎

 

Alex West

[Luke Hillman]

Wim Wakker once posted a detailed explanation of how raised ends are not purely aesthetic, but result in a purer sound due to less acoustic reflection:

 

 

[Alex West]

Just a small correction to Wim's article.  I've made a couple of wooden ended raised ends, copying another maker's methods.  The ends aren't carved out of a solid piece of wood, they're made by glueing several plies of veneer together and pressing in a mould. 

 

I can't comment on the acoustic effect but I find it hard to believe it's significant.

 

Alex West

[alex_holden]

5 hours ago, Luke Hillman said:

Wim Wakker once posted a detailed explanation of how raised ends are not purely aesthetic, but result in a purer sound due to less acoustic reflection:

 

That's assuming you lower the walls instead of raising the button area, which isn't always true. There is a risk of the pad grommets knocking against the underside of the end plate when playing very hard if the action is set up to give a high pad lift and the height of the action box above the pads is less than usual. That happened on one of my instruments (with flat metal ends): I had to raise the top of the walls slightly to cure it, which has somewhat discouraged me from the idea of significantly lowering the walls on raised end instruments.

 

By the way, there is a difference between metal and wooden ends, in that with metal ends you usually have a bushing board under the end plate around 3mm thick that reduces the height inside the action box in the area around the buttons. With flat ends, to compensate for the bushing board you might need to raise the walls a little bit to give enough room for the action around the buttons, which can result in more space than necessary above the pads. Raising the ends sinks the bushing board into the raised area, which does allow you to lower the walls a bit. This consideration doesn't apply to wooden ends because the bushes fit directly in the wood.

 

There are two main ways of making raised wooden ends: you can carve it from a fairly thick solid board, which results a flat bottom surface (so it's significantly thicker in the raised area); or you can laminate it in a two part mould from sheets of thin veneer, which gives you a concave recess on the bottom around the buttons. The latter method might in theory let you lower the walls a little, providing you weren't worried about the pads drumming on the ends during 'enthusiastic' playing sessions.