Shayfogs Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 Hi, I have restored a C. Jeffires 44 button anglo which unusually, has a radial reedpan. It has a softer sound ie less volume that the usual Jeffries and I wonder is this due to the radial layout. The chamber depths are similar to my Jeffries with a parallel layout viz 9mm LH and 6mm RH (excl chamois). The radial chambers are smaller in area due to their v shape and I wonder is that why the sound is different. The reeds are good and react as you'd expect Jeffries reeds to. It has new pads and valves. It is noticeable that the lower reeds on the LH from middle E/D down have a proper Jeffries growl. I would be glad to receive any views on how does chamber depth and size affect the sound and volume of reeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolm clapp Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 So many variables to consider when assessing apparent lack of volume, some probably insurmountable without expensive surgery. Others fairly simple to check, such as the thickness and stiffness of the new valves and the amount of lift of the pads. Then there is the extra weight compared with, say, a 30 key, which may require giving a bit more effort to push and pull. And most importantly, check for air leakage. Just a few random thoughts which might help.... Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Hi Shay, whilst it will be interesting to see what thoughts come up on this topic I tend to think that all those extra reeds must have a dampening effect on the reedpans which could result in diminished output volume. A direct comparison between a radial Pan 30k Wheatstone and a rectangular Pan 30k Jeffries has to be of interest... though each instrument may be different and a constantly played model will show vitality of tone over another that sits on the shelf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunks Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 (edited) On 6/3/2022 at 9:22 AM, Geoff Wooff said: Hi Shay, A direct comparison between a radial Pan 30k Wheatstone and a rectangular Pan 30k Jeffries has to be of interest... though each instrument may be different and a constantly played model will show vitality of tone over another that sits on the shelf. I have a 51 button Jeffries duet and a 53 button Wheatstone Jeffries duet. The range is basically the same although the Wheatstone is quire a bit larger. The Jeffries ( 6 1/4" ) is loud and clear, The Wheatstone (8 1/2 ) much more reedy and soft sounding although it's hard to say less in volume. Both have rather sparse fretwork ( metal ends ) and steel reeds. The first thing that jumped out at me in your photos is the large amount of chamois gasketing especially around the donut hole. I keep photos of the innards of mine to aid in repairs etc.. A quick glance at the reed pans reveals the linear amt. of gasketing in the Wheatstone ( radial ) to be more than double that of the Jeffries ( rectangular ) even if they were the same size across the flats. Also, the Jeffries has no dedicated gasket around the hole. I don't have a lot of experience with other instruments but it seems to me this could have a large damping effect. Edited June 5, 2022 by wunks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Thorne Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 42 minutes ago, wunks said: I have a 51 button Jeffries duet and a 53 button Wheatstone Jeffries duet. The range is basically the same although the Wheatstone is quire a bit larger. The Jeffries ( 6 1/4" ) is loud and clear, The Wheatstone (8 1/2 ) much more reedy and soft sounding although it's hard to say less in volume. Both have rather sparse fretwork ( metal ends ) and steel reeds. The first thing that jumped out at me in your photos is the large amount of chamois gasketing especially around the donut hole. I keep photos of the innards of mine to aid in repairs etc.. A quick glance at the reed pans reveals the linear amt. of gasketing in the Wheatstone ( radial ) to be more than double that of the Jeffries ( rectangular ) even if they were the same size across the flats. Also, the jeffries has no dedicated gasket around the hole. I don't have a lot of experience with other instruments but it seems to me this could a large damping effect. Yes. To my eye most of the gasketing inboard of the chamber ends is redundant, from a sealing point of view anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunks Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 Along these lines 😏, The gasket material appears very thick and perhaps wider than the top edges of the chamber walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayfogs Posted June 5, 2022 Author Share Posted June 5, 2022 Thanks, The chamois gaskets might be a factor. I might try a lighter leather in narrower strips. Might even remove the circular gasket around the centre hole to see what difference if any, it makes. Will report back in due course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayfogs Posted June 19, 2022 Author Share Posted June 19, 2022 Replaced the gasket with narrower strips. No appreciable difference. The heavier bellows might be a factor too but I'm not changing that. I guess it is intrinsically a softer sound due to the radial design and chamber size. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayfogs Posted June 19, 2022 Author Share Posted June 19, 2022 The bellows is a replacement by John Connors. It is Moroccan leather and heavier than normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Hardy Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 On 6/19/2022 at 9:42 PM, Shayfogs said: The bellows is a replacement by John Connors. It is Moroccan leather and heavier than normal. If my John Connors English (#2) is anything to go by, most of John's work is heavier than normal! It's loud though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Harrison Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 I had two of John's bellows and although maybe heavier, they were wonderful quality and I am not sure I noticed any real difference compared to the Rosalie dipper bellows I have had. They would not affect volume at all and I would be very happy to have them on any anglo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayfogs Posted June 22, 2022 Author Share Posted June 22, 2022 No doubting the quality of John Connor's bellows but they are very heavy and I think do play a part in the sound from my tina. However the biggest factor is the radial layout. I swopped reeds into another Jeffries and they did sound brighter. So the radial layout does have a dampening effect on the sound. On the plus side It does have a nice tone and is very playable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 it is probably the fact that you have so many reeds packed into a small space, the chamber sizes are correspondingly reduced, the reed lengths may ne shorter, so the reed thicknesses are greater. I might guess that on the Bass end, there are several reeds that have been weighted on their tips to drop their natural pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayfogs Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 Hi Dave, The reed sizes are normal as far as I can see, The reed chambers esp the RH are smaller in depth being 6mm as opposed to 10mm on the LH. (This is the same as on my 30 key Jeffries) The LH reeds are not more loaded than normal and in fact the ones from E/F down have a good growl to them. Are you saying smaller reed chambers in themselves reduce the reed response? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Mellish Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 There can be many reasons for one concertina to sound different from another. I am not convinced that the reed layout in itself (radial versus whatever you call the usual Jeffries layout) would be one of them, though it may have implications for the sizes of the reed chambers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayfogs Posted June 25, 2022 Author Share Posted June 25, 2022 Hi Richard, I agree. They're like people, so individual, even when made with exactly the same materials. I'm just trying to eliminate possible causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Another variable that you touched in briefly is valves. Valves that are heavier than ideal can reduce volume significantly. How thick are your valves? What kind of leather have you used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolm clapp Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 8 hours ago, Theo said: Another variable that you touched in briefly is valves. Valves that are heavier than ideal can reduce volume significantly. How thick are your valves? What kind of leather have you used? What Theo said. I did suggest this and other comparatively simple reasons for the lack of volume some weeks ago, but these ideas seems to have been dismissed in favour of more complex (and possibly insurmountable) causes, though an interesting thread has nevertheless resulted..... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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