michael sam wild Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) This may seem like sacrilege but has anyone reduced the length of buttons so they are nearer the end plates so that fingers can be slid across to other buttons and also reduce rattle . I know Henrik Muller made an EC with a lowered action, he had it at Bradfield this summer, nice smooth action I always modified melodeons if the buttons stood up too high or low but that is reversible Edited January 8, 2009 by michael sam wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_freereeder Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) This may seem like sacrilage but has anyone reduced the length of buttons so they are nearer the end plates so that fingers can be slid across to other buttons and also reduce rattle . I know Henrik Muller made an EC with a lowered action, he had it at Bradfield this summer, nice smooth action I always modified melodeons if the buttons stood up too high or low but that is reversible Mike, The key height/travel is a combined function of the pad thickness, the felt circle at the base of the key, the shape of the lever arm, and the height of the pivot post above the action board. Dave Elliott's 'Concertina Maintenance Manual' describes making a tool, a gauge and a method for bending the lever arm to obtain the optimum key height and travel. I've never needed to do this, but I would guess you need a lot of patience and care. But you don't need to cut anything off the buttons. Edited January 7, 2009 by Steve_freereeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Harrison Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I had this done on a Jeffries by Colin Dipper once...........he took the buttons off and shortened them on a lathe. The previous owner had had Colin put LONG buttons on because he was a guitar player and wanted to preserve his nails. I like a lower action too but I don't know about reducing rattle, though. Robin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 ...I know Henrik Muller made an EC with a lowered action, he had it at Bradfield this summer, nice smooth action ... Hi, Michael - My comments on this: I tend to look - after 2 years playing the thing - at: low action (or full travel buttons) button diameter horizontal button spacing - as a single "playability" parameter. Larger diameter, because I find it pleasant and since the buttons go all the way down to the plate, it makes sense to me to have a little more space around them. On top of that we should probably add the shape of the button top: - flat - spherical with sphere diameter = button diameter - spherical with sphere diameter larger than button diameter (Yes, we are into nitty-gritty stuff here, but that's what we do in this forum, isn't it ) Ah - we need to add the spring tension as a final point... === A few button diameters from the real world: - A (44-button) Jeffries: 4.0 mm - A Wheatstone (56 button) EC, mahogany ends: 4.6 mm - A Wheatstone (48 button), EC, hex, metal ends: 5.0 mm - A Wheatstone (48 button Æola), EC, ebony ends: 5.0 mm - My little ol' Stagi mini wreck: 5.8 mm - The Slide Engine (my own): 5.5 mm - the pencil tops... (Could I choose freely, I would choose for 6.0 mm) But all this factors are very personal - people have different preferences, period. But isn't it interesting to see that the top instruments of the instrument with the most "room" between buttons, the Anglo, often has the buttons with the smallest diameter? Changing an existing instrument's buttons/action depth is basically risky, I think. The only "safe" way seems to be to have a full, completely new set of buttons made, to test. So - rambling ended. Not very organized... still on vacation /Henrik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Thanks Steve I appreciate that there are ways to lower the buttons by leverage modification. That's what I do on melodeons and it's reversible. Henrik I like your approach but I'm loath to mess with my Jeffries just yet. By the way I had a Connor rebuild of a Lachenal with very narrow metal butons with domed ends , which I got fed up with. But I love the bone, wider Jeffries buttons with a flatter, but still humped ends. From my melodeon experience I like wider buttons such as Salterelle rather than old Hohners, and I agree you can slide off onto more area when the buttons are lower Robin If Dipper can do it it must be worth a thought. I'm sure it would be a matter of setting up a jig rather than filing away!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Steve is right you can adjust the key travel by bending levers and by adding/removing damper felt washers below the button, what you can't do is to lower the depressed button height by more than a small amount - by removing damper washers. If you want to have buttons that are set low and which in the depressed position are nearly flush with the end of the instrument than the only practical way is to use shorter buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 [- the pencil tops... Mark Davis and Bill Crossland at our Royal Concertina club here near Sheffield told me Wim Wakker uses ball point pen biro metal tops is that right? A bit like capping gold teeth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) Theo, that's what I reckoned. I suppose I could make a duplicate set of buttons with all the desirable qualities and dimensions within the parameters of my end plates etc. I did like the action and feel of Henrik's 'Slider' EC however!! I do like the feel of gliding around low slippery ' perlmutter' buttons on squeezeboxes with shiny metal ends ( does this make me an old perve?) It's a bit like ice skating. Having said that I find the sharp edges of the rather 'routine knocked out' sawn Jeffries' fretwork is not as pleasant as the chamfered, or well worn, edges of a nice ebony end plate. (There's another thread on Noel Hill's Linota) Apropos of bone buttons, when I was a kid we boiled down beef bones from the butcher's to make 'Rickers' i.e'.' The Bones' for rattling along to tunes ( we also used bits of green Cumberland or blue Welsh slate), We also used such bone for mandolin and guitar bridges ( which we got from pawn shops) and also to replace buttons and toggles for clothes in WW2 I used to use Hydrogen Peroxide from the Chemists , rather than bleach, to clean bone up at the end, I can stll smell it sizzling. Bleach made it expand and distort, what do people use now that is milder? Mike (Down Memory Lane, a la Proust) Edited January 8, 2009 by michael sam wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 [- the pencil tops... Mark Davis and Bill Crossland at our Royal Concertina club here near Sheffield told me Wim Wakker uses ball point pen biro metal tops is that right? A bit like capping gold teeth! I think they mixed things up. As far as I know first and only use of this ingenious solution was by Henrik Müller in his "kitchen table project", building "the Slide Engine". See page 6. (Photo #3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 Maybe my bad memory I can't fault Bill and Mark's knowledge about anything tina'ish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Crossland Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Marginally bad memory Mike - Jurgen Suttner is the man for biro tops Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Marginally bad memory Mike - Jurgen Suttner is the man for biro tops Bill I recall the first time I met Jürgen and revealed the source of the metal caps on my buttons - his response was :"Haha - we have the same supplier!" /Henrik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takayuki YAGI Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Just a thought... If one put something thick with button hole to the end plate surface, does it make similar (not exactly the same) effect to cutting buttons ? I have one anglo with a leather pasted on the end around the buttons. A photo is here. Ex-owner of this concertina didn't know the reason why this had such strange parts. I thought it was something like cosmetic reason but the button travel are relatively shorten by that additional leather. -- Taka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted January 29, 2009 Author Share Posted January 29, 2009 Just a thought... If one put something thick with button hole to the end plate surface, does it make similar (not exactly the same) effect to cutting buttons ? I have one anglo with a leather pasted on the end around the buttons. A photo is here. Ex-owner of this concertina didn't know the reason why this had such strange parts. I thought it was something like cosmetic reason but the button travel are relatively shorten by that additional leather. -- Taka Hi taka Coincidence! A few colleagues had a similar thought last night at our Concertina meeting!. It would save making the buttons shorter and give a chance to try out the principal. Lateral thinking, has any one any ideas of spacers we could use? It should not make much difference to the sound, a few mm added to space above the woodwork. I wondered if a quick and temporary balsa wood or plastic hexagon gasket would work. Thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 I've decided to use spacers cut from some plastic tube to work out the best protrusion of buttons. It shouldn't affect sound too much Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Edgley Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 If you lower the buttons by reducing the travel, I'm assuming the pads will raise up off the vent hole less. The only other way to reduce button height is to reduce button length to achieve the lower button effect. If you bend the levers to lower the buttons you will also change the amount the pads will lift off the vent holes. This will affact volume, and more importantly, will affect the tuning and possibly the reponse of the instrument. This is not something you want to do without careful consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 I see what you mean Frank, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 I've decided to use spacers cut from some plastic tube to work out the best protrusion of buttons. It shouldn't affect sound too much Mike Mike, there are a whole series of issues here: action movement; tuning and muting; reversing the modifications later, the effectiveness of any change etc. Despite what was said earlier, about not bending lever arms when re- padding, you always need to make some adjustment, to get even key heights and above all to set the key travel, to a consistent 3.2mm, this travel length opens the pads adequately without having the pegs on the ends of the keys come so far out of the action plate as to catch, jam or break. To drop the key height you have several choices, but altering button travel is not one of them. you can reduce the damper stack, but beware of the key pegs jamming at the botton of the action plate hole or simply bottoming in the hole before the remaining damper comes into contact. You can shorten some types of keys, but its a bit irrevesible. Finally I would suggest you shim the action box cover. Set up the action as it was designed, then shim with some card or leather spacers between the action box cover and the outer face of the padboard frame, preferably adjacent to the end bolts. I have seen this done before, it will lift the end plate up the keys by the thickness of the shimming. It is fully reversible and and at least it will tell you if any modification is worth it for you. We are both in Sheffield, make contact if you wish to discuss further. Dave E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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