Electronic Tuners

[d.elliott]

Has anyone tried to use 'strobe' tuners, or virtual strobe tuners?

 

My current seiko tuner has always been difficult to use on the lower frequencies, and I have been looking at the Petersen range, specifically the virtual strobe model, V-SAM.

 

Any thoughts or options? Remember my contra-bass goes down two octaves below the standard treble. I don't get many to re-tune, but I wish to improve what I have, and ensure this capability

 

Dave E

 

 

 

 

 

edited for spelling

Edited November 12, 2006 by d.elliott

[Theo]

Dave

 

I've looked at the Petersen virtual strobe tuner in a local Petersen dealers, and for me it was a difficult thing to use. The display was not terribly easy to read, and being digital you did not get that smooth movement of the display that you get on the "real" strobe tuners. I didn't buy one. I'd recommend trying one before spending your money.

[malcolm clapp]

There is a "virtual" strobe tuner in the G-Tune package, downloadable quite cheaply on the net. (Trial version as shareware iirc). I have tried it, but still get faster and more accurate results from APTuner, though not perhaps as low as you might need, though I do use it for accordion bass reeds as a guide, but often the two things on the side of my head give me the best "final" result.

 

"Real" Peterson strobe tuners are hellishly expensive, at least down-under.

 

MC

[Bob Tedrow]

My"real" Peterson Strobe tuner gave up the ghost fairly quickly. I went back to using my 30+ year old Conn Strobe tuner which works great.

 

I bet you can find one on Ebay.

 

 

 

Bob

[Dan Worrall]

Has anyone tried to use 'strobe' tuners, or virtual strobe tuners?

 

My current seiko tuner has always been difficult to use on the lower frequencies, and I have been looking at the Petersen range, specifically the virtual strobe model, V-SAM.

 

Any thoughts or options? Remember my contra-bass goes down two octaves below the standard treble. I don't get many to re-tune, but I wish to improve what I have, and ensure this capability

 

Dave E

 

 

 

 

 

edited for spelling

I have a V-SAM. The display takes some getting used to, but works fine for me. The range is enough for any application, I should think. I also like the ease of specifying notes, or its ease in automatically finding a note you are playing. It does have a bit of a problem finding the note in the highest ranges on a CG, but it can be worked through.

It also has quite a few temperaments built in (quarter comma, just, Werkmesiter III (sp?), etc.), as well as the ability for the user to input a temperament of his own design. And the cost is a LOT less than a strobe.

 

Dan

[Ken_Coles]

Peterson strobes need not be expensive - that's only if you buy new. I got an old one at a ham and old radio swap meet for 70 bucks, and it works fine and was dead on with Larry Miller's. To those radio guys it was a piece of wierd junk they wanted to unload. I hear some of the old Conn tuners have a bulb you can't replace (i.e., no longer available) when the old one burns out, but I have no real info on them - Something to check on if you surf for old ones.

[Paul Read]

I use the Peterson VS-II vitual strobe. I believe that the display is a big improvement on the VS-I. The only problem I find is that if you are tuning a reed that is way out there is no indication as to how far out it is without searching. I therefore use a Seiko chromatic guitar tuner to get in the ballpark and then get accurate with the Peterson. The Casio is incredibly inaccurate but the strobe is to within 0.2 cents.

 

I did have an issue with inteference from the mains power frequency but using an external microphone eliminated this problem.

 

I have found the Peterson customer support to be excellent.

edited to eliminate a couple of inaccuracies!

Edited November 12, 2006 by Paul Read

[d.elliott]

I have been advised by another VS-II owner (and professional concertina restorer) that the virtual strobe is un-handy to use if you do a lot of tuning. There is no direct and immediate read out of error (as in the position of a needle). You have to assess the display scrolling speed, and turn a dial to get an error reading.

 

If you tune 'by difference' i.e. by taking a set of readings from reeds in the instrument, compare them with the reed values off the tuning rig, and then adjust by the error difference, this form of display is not very managable.

 

If this is true then I am looking for an analogue display tumer with a mic/ sensitivity that is reliable in the contra-bass range, any more ideas team?

 

Dave

[Paul Read]

I have been advised by another VS-II owner (and professional concertina restorer) that the virtual strobe is un-handy to use if you do a lot of tuning. There is no direct and immediate read out of error (as in the position of a needle). You have to assess the display scrolling speed, and turn a dial to get an error reading.

 

If you tune 'by difference' i.e. by taking a set of readings from reeds in the instrument, compare them with the reed values off the tuning rig, and then adjust by the error difference, this form of display is not very managable.

 

If this is true then I am looking for an analogue display tumer with a mic/ sensitivity that is reliable in the contra-bass range, any more ideas team?

 

Dave

Dave,

 

That agrees with what I said above. That's why I use the Seiko to get it in the ballpark, then I fine tune. Using the two together works fine for me, and I tune instruments regularly. You get the speed and the accuracy this way. There may be something better out there but I didn't find it when I was looking.

Edited November 12, 2006 by Paul Read

[Dan Worrall]

I have been advised by another VS-II owner (and professional concertina restorer) that the virtual strobe is un-handy to use if you do a lot of tuning. There is no direct and immediate read out of error (as in the position of a needle). You have to assess the display scrolling speed, and turn a dial to get an error reading.

 

If you tune 'by difference' i.e. by taking a set of readings from reeds in the instrument, compare them with the reed values off the tuning rig, and then adjust by the error difference, this form of display is not very managable.

 

If this is true then I am looking for an analogue display tumer with a mic/ sensitivity that is reliable in the contra-bass range, any more ideas team?

 

Dave

Dave,

 

Au contraire, there is a direct way to assess how far off you are, at least with the V-sam. You can accurately measure how many cents off you are....or inversely you can set your tuner a certain number of cents off a note and then match that with your reed. It is very easy to do....there is a dial to turn that adjusts in one cent steps. When sounding a reed, you turn the dial until the moving display stops moving...then directly read out in cents how far off you are. Or if you know that simply removing the reed from the pan makes it 5 cents flat, then you set the dial for five cents flat to the desired note and then tune the reed, adjusting the reed until the display stops moving. Presto...if all else is okay it is close to right on when you return the reed to the pan (if not, repeat!). I learned this from Harold Herrington, who 'difference tunes' outside of the reed pan all the time. He had a couple of strobes, but now prefers the V-SAM mainly because of this handy feature. By the way, the V-SAM also produces an audible pure tone for using audible pitch for fine tuning when desired.

 

edited for clarity

Edited November 13, 2006 by Dan Worrall

[Dana Johnson]

I use three different tuners. For initial tuning of reeds, I use a virtual tuner called Syaku8 t. As long as you calibrate it each time you use it, it seems to do quite well. It provides a "needle" cents as well as numerical frequency readout, and also has different available top window displays. the one I use the most shows the various harmonics. It seems pretty good at picking out the fundamental, though for some notes, I find I may need to make sure the mike is places properly near the instrument since the fundametal may not radiate in as focused a manner as the next harmonic or two which can be quite strong and give a reading a 5th up in the scale or so. Basically though if it can hear the fundamental well, it knows to go for the lowest note of the series.

 

My second tuner I use for measuring the amount the finished instruments tuning or lack of it as the case may be, is a Korg MasterTune 1000. It is an analog tuner with both auto and manual note selection. On manual, you can select the octave you want it to listen to which is handy for the lower notes since it is quite easy for other tuners to happily pick out the first octave instead of the relatively weak fundamental. Tuning that harmonic doesn't guarantee the fundamental will be in tune. I like it because it is relatively fast to use to generate a tuning chart and self calibrates each time you turn it on. So far it remains quite accurate. You can't read it better than one cent, but realistically, other playing factors make reeds deviate while you play them often by a bit more than that. Temperaments also make tuning to higher accuracies more of an academic exercise than a musically valuable one.

 

My third tuner I use for final tuning. it is basically a strobe tuner ( Sanderson Acutuner II ) but has a bunch of great features that make accurate tuning easy. It is a high quality piano tuner, and only is manually operated. You have to select both the note and the octave you want it to listen to, which makes using it a little slow. For a piano or other completely sequential instrument, it has a foot switch that steps it through the notes of the scale. For a reed pan, that isn't all that helpful. It is excellent at mesauring exactly how far off a note is and then can be offset so that you re tune by what ever amount you need to within a 10th of a cent or less. The digital readout in cents only goes down to 0.1 cents, but whe the strobe is stopped it is supposed to be accurate to 0.02 cents. Totally useless accuracy, but the strobe makes it pretty easy to control.

 

Both the Korg and Sanderson are expensive. That model of Korg is out of production, but they may have a better one out there. It was well over $100, but works pretty easily and fast as well as being octave selectable. The new Sandersons are over $1000, but reconditioned ones are available ( they have a trade in policy ) that are cheaper and still work just as great. Wouldn't bother for a few concertinas, or keeping one in tune, but I am glad I got it for my work. The measure and ofsett functions are indispensable for me for final tuning. Comes with a number of built in temeraments as well as the ability to load any temperament you want if you know the note values. it has a bunch of piano related features that don't count on the concertina, but there isn't much you cant tune with the thing.

 

 

The Shaku program (for PC ) ( Rich knows some other good shareware tuners ) was freeware. It's visual reference and auto or manual option are useful, and the large screen image makes it much easier on the eyes for day after day of tuning for reed making. Since I don't use it for final tuning, I haven't bothered to check it's accuracy outside of making sure I recalibrate each time I start it since it always seems to start about 5 cents flat. ( just checked all the tuners against the accutuner which was recently services and had it's calibration checked to a proper standard at the factory, and all the tuners are on the money. The Shaku ( look it up under "Syaku8" ) turns out the calibration is for the tone it can generate. It was exactly on for reading a frequency both before and after the calibration process, but the reference tone it generated was initally off (if you were tuning another instrument to it by ear). that is both cheap and easy to use and now it seems more than accurate enough for reed work. I don't know how other virtual tuners measure up. but I'd rather go with this one than a pure strobe anytime. Rich Morse had one he likes. For the price, and probably even if it were a pretty good price it is hard to beat. You can also ofsett this one as well.

Dana

[ragtimer]

That agrees with what I said above. That's why I use the Seiko to get it in the ballpark, then I fine tune. Using the two together works fine for me, and I tune instruments regularly. You get the speed and the accuracy this way. There may be something better out there but I didn't find it when I was looking.

Yes!

I have a very complete little pocket Seiko tuner, that is pretty good at finding the note and octave quickly, and getting up both a numerical error indication and a simulated analog needle. Accurate to one cent.

 

BUT -- it tends to dither around, hopping up and down by a few cents while the tone is sounding. Even on a steady tone from my electronic organ. The last time I tuned my organ, I got ffed up and went and got my Conn strobe, which I bought surplus from the local town band for $15. You have to preset the rotary switch for the note you're tuning (hey, you do know what note you're tuning, right? ), and you have to adjust another knob to find out how many cents off (or to set up an odd temperament). But, it's steady and easy to tell when you're right on pitch. The big neon bulb seems to have plenty of years left in it.

 

So use a digital meter to get initial readings (if it will settle down within a couple cents), then finish up with a real strobe.

 

FWIW, I also own a working Conn Strobotuner -- two big heavy black boxes, but the display shows all 12 chromatic notes at a time, each with its own strobe disc! I bought it for nearly nothing when the Penn State Band junked it (still working) back in 1964!

--Mike K.

[Frank Edgley]

Regarding the Syaku8 tuner, I have found it very useful, accurate, and reliable. What I have found is that, depending on what computer you may be using, "A440" on the screen may not really be A440. On one computer, A440 may be slightly sharp with a standard tuning fork, and on another computer it may be slightly slightly flat with the same tuning fork. No doubt, it has something to do with the the various computer's internals, but that is beyond my knowledge. However, as soon as you figure that out, and allow for it, the Syaku8 is much easier to use than the "Tune-it" program.

[d.elliott]

All good stuff!

 

I am minded to keep my seiko for the quick and not too dirty tuning for most instruments, and I shall think about a virtual strobe unit, or software, I am not convinced that my sound card is too good on its mic input, so there is more checking out to do.

 

Dan,

 

the process you describe is what my friend described, he finds it too slow and cumbersome. I suspect that you need two hands to operate the rig, or concertina, and a third hand to turn the dial on the V-SAM tuner. He comments that he only has two hands!

 

My Seiko cost me £98 some three years ago, it was not cheap, all I want is a version of the same, or similar, tuner that reliably picks out the bass notes!

 

There must be one, somewhere?

 

Dave

[Dan Worrall]

Dan,

 

the process you describe is what my friend described, he finds it too slow and cumbersome. I suspect that you need two hands to operate the rig, or concertina, and a third hand to turn the dial on the V-SAM tuner. He comments that he only has two hands!

 

Dave

Dave,

Not to belabor the point (okay, maybe just a leetle bit! ), but I think your friend's problem is the rig itself if it takes "two hands to operate the rig". When tuning outside of the concertina, all I use, and all I have seen a few others use, is a simple bellows that drops from a horizontal board with a slot opening that holds the reed (in my case, via a little wooden clamp powered by a rubber band), and a simple one way leather valve for exhaling. To play that rig only takes one hand to pull or push the bellows, and as you say, the tuner takes the other hand. Harold Herrington even dispenses with the one hand...he made an ingenious little knee-operated lever/pulley rig to operate the bellows. When testing a reed still inside the concertina, I just hold one end of the tina in between my legs...still just one hand to play it. As far as switching back and forth from file to tuner goes, if I set the tuner to the exact pitch required (including any spare cents fine adjustments desired), then there is no reason to fiddle with the tuner dial at all....file and then sound until the display stops moving, and if it starts moving the opposite direction, I know have gone too far (time for me to remember to be much more careful). But to each his own. I certainly bow to others with much greater experience!! Have fun...

Dan

[chris]

I wonder what Wheatstones tuners would think about the 'need' for such technology

chris

[Paul Read]

 

Dan,

 

the process you describe is what my friend described, he finds it too slow and cumbersome. I suspect that you need two hands to operate the rig, or concertina, and a third hand to turn the dial on the V-SAM tuner. He comments that he only has two hands!

 

Dave

Dave,

Not to belabor the point (okay, maybe just a leetle bit! ), but I think your friend's problem is the rig itself if it takes "two hands to operate the rig". When tuning outside of the concertina, all I use, and all I have seen a few others use, is a simple bellows that drops from a horizontal board with a slot opening that holds the reed (in my case, via a little wooden clamp powered by a rubber band), and a simple one way leather valve for exhaling. To play that rig only takes one hand to pull or push the bellows, and as you say, the tuner takes the other hand. Harold Herrington even dispenses with the one hand...he made an ingenious little knee-operated lever/pulley rig to operate the bellows. When testing a reed still inside the concertina, I just hold one end of the tina in between my legs...still just one hand to play it. As far as switching back and forth from file to tuner goes, if I set the tuner to the exact pitch required (including any spare cents fine adjustments desired), then there is no reason to fiddle with the tuner dial at all....file and then sound until the display stops moving, and if it starts moving the opposite direction, I know have gone too far (time for me to remember to be much more careful). But to each his own. I certainly bow to others with much greater experience!! Have fun...

Dan

 

Hi Dan,

 

You've hit it right on. I was trying to see where Dave's friend's problem was and you've helped me visualise it.

[d.elliott]

 

Dan,

 

the process you describe is what my friend described, he finds it too slow and cumbersome. I suspect that you need two hands to operate the rig, or concertina, and a third hand to turn the dial on the V-SAM tuner. He comments that he only has two hands!

 

Dave

Dave,

Not to belabor the point (okay, maybe just a leetle bit! ), but I think your friend's problem is the rig itself if it takes "two hands to operate the rig". When tuning outside of the concertina, all I use, and all I have seen a few others use, is a simple bellows that drops from a horizontal board with a slot opening that holds the reed (in my case, via a little wooden clamp powered by a rubber band), and a simple one way leather valve for exhaling. To play that rig only takes one hand to pull or push the bellows, and as you say, the tuner takes the other hand. Harold Herrington even dispenses with the one hand...he made an ingenious little knee-operated lever/pulley rig to operate the bellows. When testing a reed still inside the concertina, I just hold one end of the tina in between my legs...still just one hand to play it. As far as switching back and forth from file to tuner goes, if I set the tuner to the exact pitch required (including any spare cents fine adjustments desired), then there is no reason to fiddle with the tuner dial at all....file and then sound until the display stops moving, and if it starts moving the opposite direction, I know have gone too far (time for me to remember to be much more careful). But to each his own. I certainly bow to others with much greater experience!! Have fun...

Dan

 

Ah-Ha Dan,

 

my rig, as does my friend's, works by pushing up to exhale the air before use, and then by gravity opening the bellows drawing air through a vent with the reed in a carrier held in position by the other hand.

 

One hand to lift the bellows to exhale them, and then to control their rate of decent, one hand to hold the reed carrier over the rig's vent slot.

 

Two hands, none spare to twiddle the knob!

 

 

Dave