Does Somebody Needs 38+ Buttons To Play O'raghallaigh Style

[Orm]

I'm a big fan of Micheal O'Raghallaigh playing, and significant part of his style is playing additional notes/chords/occasional runs as accents. I know that Micheal plays 38b Suttner. And I wonder - do you think it's possible to do what Micheal does without those extra buttons?

[Lawrence Reeves]

I would suggest a class with Micheál the best way to answer that question in total. However, my thought is the extra 8 buttons are not a big part of what you are hearing on the recordings. The mastery of the instrument to know on push and pull possible chords, and knowing which notes create the complex chords he uses. Other factors in what you are hearing is the subtle fine tuning of his concertina. Some notes have been flattened slightly to make the chords sound rich. On this site you will hear references to several tunings such as 1/5 comma, and 1/4 comma mean tuning. Others are versions of that to make the instrument sweeter sounding. As, for the additional buttons, they do allow a few extra ways to play notes such as g#, and a few spare f naturals, and the like. They are convenient in some tunes, but the meat of playing an anglo happens on the buttons found on a 26 through 30 keyed instrument. He may use some of those for the "runs" you mention.

[Bob Michel]

However, my thought is the extra 8 buttons are not a big part of what you are hearing on the recordings.

 

While I'm a big fan of 38- and 40-button Anglos, I tend to agree with Lawrence here. Micheál may now and then play a particular phrase or chord voicing that's not available on a 30-button instrument, but I very much doubt that the extra buttons are strictly necessary to his style.

 

A 40-button box enables you to play some useful reversals of full (1,3,5) chords: e.g., F and D chords on the push that take advantage of reversed F and F# respectively. But Irish music doesn't make extensive use of these. Micheál may use more chords than some other players do, but I don't hear him playing a lot of obtrusive thirds, which don't really suit the idiom and tend to clash with what other players are doing. What I do hear are nice bass runs and accents and really impressive playing in octaves. You should be able to do that, or most of it, on a 30-button instrument (though not perhaps on a 26-button one, which lacks some useful low notes).

 

The extra fingering option I do constantly take advantage of when playing Irish stuff on my 40-button concertinas is the pull-C#: my Lachenal has one of these, my Wheatstone two (!), in addition to the standard push-C# of the Wheatstone layout they both share. I used to fret a little about this, and try to work out fingerings that avoided those buttons, for the sake of more traditional phrasing--until it occurred to me that the reason many Irish players opt for the Jeffries layout is precisely the availability of C# in both directions. Well, I have that, in combination with what strikes me as the superior logic and symmetry of the Wheatstone arrangement. So I learned to stop worrying and love my additional buttons.

 

But--granted that I'm no Micheál O Raghallaigh--I think I could easily do without them if I just played Irish music, even in an unusually harmonic style. So play away, and don't worry that the tool you have isn't up to the job. Finally, if you want to ponder exactly what you *could* accomplish with all those extras, these charts may be useful:

 

http://www.concertina.info/tina.faq/images/finger3.htm

 

Hope this helps.

 

Bob Michel

Near Philly

[Chris Ghent]

I once spent an hour listening to Micheal playing a 30key and you would be pushed to hear a difference. Yes, there are chords he can play both in and out on the 38 and couldn't on the 30, and the same for a few individual notes, but for Micheal it is not an issue.

[ceemonster]

also, keep in mind . . . a bunch of those extra notes on a 38 are the super-high notes above "High C" that you never use. it's one of the really asinine things about anglo concertinas. I spent a couple of years tearing up design drawings for a 38 that would use all buttons for multiples of notes one uses for folk music, until I got tired of it and switched to EC . . .

[Orm]

Thanks for the answers, guys

 

Actually I've tried a couple of MOR tunes and it's indeed more or less possible to play even on my lovely 26 buttons Lachenal (a bit simplier to play on 30 buttons Edlgey, of course). So it makes me wonder - do you even need 30 buttons for irish? I do miss A on the left side for push, but I probably could change low C on the C row to this push A (never played this C anyway).

 

Do people retune those buttons on 30 button concertinas? For example this low C - wouldn't it be more useful to tune it, for instance, to push middle F? I can also think of possibility of retuning first button on extra row (Low E/F) - never used this button as well.

 

At the moment it's from theoretical point of view, I'm only playing tunes in common keys, and mostly Irish, so I'd be grateful for any expert opinion on that.

[Bob Michel]

So it makes me wonder - do you even need 30 buttons for irish?

Nope. 26 buttons should do the trick. Jacqueline McCarthy plays (or used to play, anyway) a little two-row, 24-button Wheatstone that had been custom ordered (if I remember the story) by a British sailor serving in a WWI submarine. It didn't hold her back!

 

You could swap out some reeds if you like. I'd be cautious about doing that, if only because my playing changes constantly, and with it my needs. For many years I was barely familiar with the lowest notes on my instrument; now I don't think I could get by without them. Even those squeaky high notes are proving more useful all the time. On the other hand, as long as the changes you made were reversible, I don't see why you shouldn't experiment.

 

Any instrument will have its limitations (and particular strengths) that help to shape your personal style. Working within (or, sometimes, against) those limitations is part of the fun.

 

Bob Michel

Near Philly

[Azalin]

I've got a 34 buttons and I find my extra reverse E, G# and F# very handy sometimes, but the note I miss the most is a reverse low C especially in a few Dm tunes. I would love to have a reverse low C on some left thumb button like some Anglo concertinas have.

[JimLucas]

Actually I've tried a couple of MOR tunes and it's indeed more or less possible to play even on my lovely 26 buttons Lachenal (a bit simplier to play on 30 buttons Edlgey, of course). So it makes me wonder - do you even need 30 buttons for irish?

That's a different question from your original one. For the vast majority of Irish tunes and playing melody-only, you don't "need" all 30 buttons to play them. But for many of them your reversals -- and thus your style -- will then have to be different from what Micheal plays.

 

Do people retune those buttons on 30 button concertinas? For example this low C - wouldn't it be more useful to tune it, for instance, to push middle F? I can also think of possibility of retuning first button on extra row (Low E/F) - never used this button as well.

Some folks have been known to make changes to what notes are where on their anglos, but the vast majority learn to work with what they have. One good reason for not making changes is that if you become dependent on a modification for certain tunes, then you can't play those tunes on anyone else's instrument, even if they can. Another reason is, as Bob says, as you learn more (and that could simply be more tunes), you could find yourself "needing" -- or at least wanting -- those button-note combinations that you removed. There could also be technical issues related to reed size vs. chamber size if you try to replace a reed with one of a significantly different size.

 

Note: You say "retuning" for converting the lowest C to push F an octave and a half higher, but it's not really possible to retune the existing reed to that extent. You would need a new (to you) reed-and-reed-frame, if it could be made to work at all. (I also wonder why you would find a push F more important than a push F# if you're playing mainly Irish.)

[gcoover]

Slight thread drift here, but I'm wondering why no one has added an extra double C#/C# to a standard 20-button, making it a 21-button? It would be a simple modification, with plenty of room on the reed pan, and it would allow you to play about 90% of all Irish tunes (but of course not as fancy as Micheal O'Raghallaigh!)

 

Gary

[Bob Michel]

Slight thread drift here, but I'm wondering why no one has added an extra double C#/C# to a standard 20-button, making it a 21-button? It would be a simple modification, with plenty of room on the reed pan, and it would allow you to play about 90% of all Irish tunes (but of course not as fancy as Micheal O'Raghallaigh!)

 

Gary

It's been done. I remember reading about it years ago on this forum, when I was still lurking here. I think I've even seen pictures of such a box. Colin Dipper's work, perhaps?

 

Bob Michel

Near Philly

[Ken_Coles]

Bob Tedrow had a photo essay where he did that, adding a 21st button - it was some years back.

 

Ken

[adrian brown]

also, keep in mind . . . a bunch of those extra notes on a 38 are the super-high notes above "High C" that you never use. it's one of the really asinine things about anglo concertinas. I spent a couple of years tearing up design drawings for a 38 that would use all buttons for multiples of notes one uses for folk music, until I got tired of it and switched to EC . . .

 

That's actually not really correct, at least as far as the Jeffries 38 layout goes. The only "super-high" note you get is a high f natural, which can actually be quite useful on occasion (I'm thinking here of piano arrangements). The whole point of the extra 8 buttons is to give you a full chromatic range in both push and pull for the middle two octaves of the instrument (c' - c''' on a CG anglo). On my own adaption of this layout, I've got a pull low d (a tone higher than the lowest note), rather than a pull c#', which I find more useful.

 

Orm, If you want to try a Suttner 38 sometime, I'm only 45 km or so from you - send me a PM and we can make an appointment!

 

Adrian

Edited September 21, 2015 by aybee

[ceemonster]

really? I stand corrected. my impression from examining layouts was that several of the extra buttons were taken up with notes in the ''' octave.

 

well, here's a question---what about the issue of the extra notes on a 38 being less strong due to being outside some kind of acoustic core? that has been the subject of comment here at times . . . .?

[adrian brown]

 

well, here's a question---what about the issue of the extra notes on a 38 being less strong due to being outside some kind of acoustic core? that has been the subject of comment here at times . . . .?

 

Well here's a link to the topic I started on this issue: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15225. I think that while we all understand what a nasal sound is, I don't think anybody came up with an explanation of why inboard reeds should sound any differently from their outboard siblings. I could imagine that if you are using the anglo purely as a melody instrument, this nasal quality of the inboard reeds would be more disturbing than when they are played in harmony with other "normal" notes. The larger Wheatstone system with its radial pans might then be a more attractive option?

 

Adrian

[Bob Michel]

well, here's a question---what about the issue of the extra notes on a 38 being less strong due to being outside some kind of acoustic core? that has been the subject of comment here at times . . . .?

If the "extra" notes on my 40-button Wheatstone are a tad weaker, the difference is slight, and I've long since learned to compensate for it. But the reed pan is a bit crowded: the action on the RH accidental row F#/D# and C#/D# has given me trouble in the past, and I've mucked around with shims and reversed springs and whatnot. Last year I sent it to The Button Box for some tweaking, and they did a superb job of correcting these problems (at least so far). But they agreed with me that the design is less than optimal.

 

Bob Michel

Near Philly

[Chris Ghent]

well, here's a question---what about the issue of the extra notes on a 38 being less strong due to being outside some kind of acoustic core? that has been the subject of comment here at times . . . .?

 

Here are a few differences about inboard chambers. They are often longer, but this can be removed as a difference by screwing the reeds down. They are not at the outside of the reedpan. Yes , I know it is stating the obvious, but the answer might be in the obvious. Many inboard chambers seat the pad on top of the action board. But I have made a couple which did not and they still lacked punch in the sound. And lastly, unlike chambers at the outside of the reedpan, they have no layer of chamois lining the root end of the chamber.

This last idea would be easily removed as a factor if someone with an inboard chamber would like to line the root end with chamois and see what difference it makes. If you need a working hypothesis to look at, imagine you are removing a source of reflection of higher frequencies which may in some way be self cancelling.

 

This leaves number two, that there is something intrinsic to location which removes higher frequencies from inboard chambers. This would mean the location in regard to the whole is important. I already feel I know it adjusts response to place padholes as outboard as possible even in outboard chambers. But what if the bellows frame was seen as a single "room" in which a number of sound generating devices were placed. Would it make sense the ones near the stronger outside walls would sound different? If the centre of the room was unsupported from underneath would we be surprised if the devices in the centre made a subtly different sound to the ones at the edge where the floor was very supported? To imagine this, think of thumping your feet as you cross an unsupported wooden floor. Will the sound become crisper near the edges? Will it boom more in the middle? If someone wants to test this they could place a bracket across their reedpan thumbhole and screw it hard up to the bottom of the pad/action board. I'd do it but I don't have a relevant Jeffries here at the moment.

 

Have these ideas sparked any thoughts for anyone..?

[Geoff Wooff]

Chris,

I like the idea about the sound changes when walking on the unsupported, but suspended, wooden floor. Could this be the allusion to 'sound posts" in Wim Wakker's description of his Parnassus design ?

 

Often these central reed chamber notes exit their sound directly into the palms of the player's hands... could this have a baffling effect?