Mid 19Th Century Tunings

[SteveS]

Anyone know which meantone tunings were used by mid 19th century makers?

[Geoff Wooff]

Well,

they certainly used 1/4 Comma, I have come across several EC's from the 1850- 1880's that were still well enough in tune with themselves to determine the temperament used.

 

I recall Harry Crabb using the term " Uneven Temperament" which I assumed (perhaps wrongly) at the time to refer to Meantone, so maybe he was refering to one of the Irregular sytems ??

[SteveS]

Geoff - interesting what you say about instruments being sufficiently in tune and being able to determine the temperament used.

 

But if taking a mid 19th century instrument for restoration that is obviously out of tune, then if wishing to keep it in meantone, as a tuner I'll have to make a decision about what temperament to use - can I reasonably assume 1/4 comma?

 

Of course this may be a decision to be made with any prospective buyer or owner.

 

I'm starting to like more the idea of meantone temperaments - as I said I'm thinking of tuning the 'tina I use for song accompaniment to 1/5 comma.

Edited April 12, 2014 by SteveS

[adrian brown]

Audsley in his 1905 The Art of Organ-Building, describes organs in England being tuned in meantone temperament "until very recently" and adds that "all the organs in the Great Exhibition of 1851 were tuned in unequal temperament". I've read elsewhere that British small church organs were tuned in meantone well into the 20th century, since organists accompanying services never played in extreme keys.
It's been mentioned here before, but a good read that covers the whole temperament argument is Ross W. Duffin's; How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and why You Should Care)

Steve, if you get used to playing a meantone concertina, you'll never want to play one in equal temperament again, unless you really have to!

 

Adrian

[Geoff Wooff]

Geoff - interesting what you say about instruments being sufficiently in tune and being able to determine the temperament used.

 

But if taking a mid 19th century instrument for restoration that is obviously out of tune, then if wishing to keep it in meantone, as a tuner I'll have to make a decision about what temperament to use - can I reasonably assume 1/4 comma?

 

Of course this may be a decision to be made with any prospective buyer or owner.

 

I'm starting to like more the idea of meantone temperaments - as I said I'm thinking of tuning the 'tina I use for song accompaniment to 1/5 comma.

Well, it should be possible to determine 1/4 comma by how far appart the D#'s are from the Eb's ( D#'s being 41 cents flatter than the Eb's) and likewise the G#'s flater than the Ab's by a similar amount.

If the differences are less then one can look at values for other temperaments I guess.

 

If one goes to www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm there can be found much information on temperaments including a calculator to give the Cent offsets from ET for more temperaments than one can imagine.. looks to be several hundred !!

Edited April 12, 2014 by Geoff Wooff

[Steve Wilson]

 

 

I'm starting to like more the idea of meantone temperaments - as I said I'm thinking of tuning the 'tina I use for song accompaniment to 1/5 comma.

 

If you do this in the next couple of months then I will be very interested to hear what you think about the new tuning. Feel free to PM me if you care to. Certainly Adrian thinks you won"t be disappointed.

 

In the next month or so I'll have to make a decision about how I want my new (coming) concer tuned and from recent discussion and past threads I have to say I too am leaning toward 1/5 comma mean as I use the concertina for song accompaniment mostly. Of course I will have to discuss this in detail with Mr Wim Wakker.

[cboody]

One of my main instruments is tuned 1/5 comma meantone, and I have grown to really like it and to be much more sensitive to the harshness of ET on concertinas. You'll like it Steve Wilson. But, do let us know if you agree.

 

Edited to add: Thanks for the dolmetsch URL Geoff. I'd completely forgotten about it. Surely more than any of us really wants to know, but fascinating to me.

Edited April 13, 2014 by cboody

[Lofty]

There are ways to get some idea of the effects of different tunings without all the work of re-tuning an instrument.

 

Many electronic keyboards and different Digital Audio Workstation software allow the tuning system to be changed. This can be done (and undone, equally importantly!) by the pressing of a few buttons, or with a few clicks of a mouse. The alternative is to permanently remove precious material from reeds.

 

OK, the sound produced won't exactly mimic the sound of a concertina, but it will give you some idea of the differences.

 

I tried this many years ago on a Korg M1 and I was surprised by how much difference it could make.

 

Steve

[Wolf Molkentin]

There are ways to get some idea of the effects of different tunings without all the work of re-tuning an instrument.

 

Many electronic keyboards and different Digital Audio Workstation software allow the tuning system to be changed. This can be done (and undone, equally importantly!) by the pressing of a few buttons, or with a few clicks of a mouse. The alternative is to permanently remove precious material from reeds.

 

OK, the sound produced won't exactly mimic the sound of a concertina, but it will give you some idea of the differences.

 

I tried this many years ago on a Korg M1 and I was surprised by how much difference it could make.

 

Steve

 

That's a pretty good suggestion!

[Don Taylor]

Another reason for a good quality sound font.

[Wolf Molkentin]

Another reason for a good quality sound font.

Yes Don! Albeit it being very unlikely that I might fancy a MIDI controlling concer device for playing I'd surely appreciate the experimental aspect...

[JimLucas]

Another reason for a good quality sound font.

 

Not one for each temperament?

[Wolf Molkentin]

 

Another reason for a good quality sound font.

 

Not one for each temperament?

 

I'd guess this will not be necessary as a minimal shifting the pitch in very much the same range would happen without noticable losses.

 

edit: replaced "minor" with "minimal...

Edited April 14, 2014 by blue eyed sailor