Where do all the 20s go?

[TomB-R]

Okay, so I know all the Anglo players here play beautiful Jeffries and Linotas, Dippers and Suttners, but I see a steady flow of 20 button Lachenals going through Ebay UK. Two or three of them every week, mostly in need of work.

 

Where do they go? Who is buying them? The nicer ones go over £200 even with a fair bit of refurbishment involved, (and we're talking about Ebay, sight unseen etc etc here.)

 

Given the G and D centric nature of traditional music from Britain and Ireland who is playing these instruments with no C# ? Is there a secret community of players in C and G that we've never heard about?

 

To be fair, for the Irish music players, a quick review of the tunes section of www.thesession.org/tunes/ gives over 3700 tunes in C, G and the obvious related modes and minors, but how many of those are dross? Are people really sitting out the "great" tunes that have C#'s in them, when playing in their local seisun?

 

So, I'm intrigued, who's got a 20 button that they play regularly, and where, when, what, and with whom, do they play? (Grammar workout this evening!)

 

(Please move or delete this bit if necessary, mods and site owners)

I think it would be lovely to have a competition for the best sound clip, played on a 20 button concertina, of less than 45 seconds, posted here by one minute to midnight GMT on 30 September 2009.

 

Prize, a bottle of Morlands Speckled Hen or Badger Fursty Ferret, posted (to UK addresses only, sorry) by myself, (as sole judge, though I'll take note of posted comments.)

 

Tom

[Ken_Coles]

I don't see any problems with your friendly invitation, though some may have to post sound clips on third sites if they are too big. Sorry I'm too far away for your prize!

 

I don't personally a 20 (unless you count Italian instruments).

 

Ken

[Azalin]

From what I read before, many 20 buttons players are playing "the row" and usually not in your typical session keys. So Concertina Reel for example, which is usually in D, would be played in C using mostly the C row... Lot of transposing going on I think.

 

As for your competition, you don't need to do it on a 20 buttons. You can use a 30 buttons and NOT use the accidental row, it's the same. If I were to participate, I'd simply play a tune in G major, no accidental row involved for sure.

[TomB-R]

Thank you Ken, I appreciate that. (I'd "reported" my own post, just in case!)

 

Well, I said 20 button concertina, nothing about provenance.

(It has to be playable on 20 key Anglo, let's not get too picky, but honestly stated, true 20 key instruments get preference!)

 

Edit - cross post - That's fine by me Azalin, I know everyone here would take the restriction in the spirit intended.

Edited September 10, 2009 by TomB-R

[frogspawn]

My first concertina was a 20 button C/G bought on Ebay just to see if I liked the idea of playing a concertina. It was very limiting and lacked bellows power, but it was very light. I was waiting for a decent 30 (or even 26) button Anglo when a Crane came along and I changed course...

 

I guess a 20 button G/D might have been OK for English dance music. Do they exist?

 

Richard

[Lawrence Reeves]

A well tuned, responsive 20 keyed instrument is great to have. Instead of playing in D or B minor, play it in the C row. It is a different way of thinking, but delivers great music in the native row of the instrument. Kitty Hayes as an example of playing down into C or d minor, as opposed to D e minor. I have been trying to do a good bit of this type of tune learning, and it does open up possibilities for chord and drone playing. I am not saying that I am getting rid of a Suttner, or a Shakespeare, but just that it is possible to play "music" on a 20 keyed instrument. Another idea is to have a 20 key oldie tuned up to Eb, or down to C. I sold a very nice toned lachenal in Bb/F two row a few years ago, and wish I still had it to tune down to A / E.

[david_boveri]

well, i would say that a lot of these concertinas probably go to people who want to start off but don't know what to get, and know that chinese boxes are not high quality. i have known several people who shop ebay this way.

 

can i make multiple submissions? cuz i can play something in G without using the extra rows... or i could play fair, and take a D tune down into the key of C.

Edited September 11, 2009 by david_boveri

[Daniel Hersh]

I guess a 20 button G/D might have been OK for English dance music. Do they exist?

They do. When I started learning to play Anglo "English style" (melody right, accompaniment left) I started out with a new 20-button German-made double-reeded G/D Castiglione, then I moved from that to a 20-button G/D Lachenal (presumably tuned down at some point from Ab/Eb) which I still occasionally play. I also have a 20-button German D/A which I sometimes use to play Irish tunes along the row, as Lawrence described.

 

I'll enter the contest if I can figure out what to use for recording equipment.

 

Daniel

[Bill N]

Thank you Ken, I appreciate that. (I'd "reported" my own post, just in case!)

 

Well, I said 20 button concertina, nothing about provenance.

(It has to be playable on 20 key Anglo, let's not get too picky, but honestly stated, true 20 key instruments get preference!)

 

I've been meaning to figure out how to post sound clips, and this will be the impetus I need. I've been playing a year now, and feel like I should share the results of all the advice and learning gained from this site. I'll try recording something in C on my c.1875 Henry Harley. It's nominally a 26 key box, but probably started life as a 20 button one. And the accidentals are so oddly located as to be almost useless. I won't touch them, I promise!

[Lawrence Reeves]

I just posted an ABC of The Musical Priest in the Tunes and Learning section of the forum. I am using only notes from a 20 keyed instrument. Me and my concertinas are heading to a weekend gig, and will experience the joys of airport security in a few hours.

[drbones]

Where do they go? Who is buying them?

 

Tom

 

I've got one, and, yes, it took some extensive refurbishment.

At least that much of the mystery is solved.

[malcolm clapp]

Where do they go? Well, mine has been loitering in the cupboard for a while, but this thread has encouraged me to get the poor thing out and give it a blast. It is a Crabb from the 1940s, which I re-reeded with Lachenal reeds about 30 years ago as an A/E for song accompaniment (lovely singing key, F#m !!!).

 

Not a high quality instrument (black painted ends and wood screws), and the buttons were crumbling away, so they've been replaced with thinner, bushed nickel buttons.

 

Don't do too much singing these days, so how long it will remain out of the cupboard is questionable...unless I find another use for it. So when is the A/E revival starting???

 

MC

[hjcjones]

Given the G and D centric nature of traditional music from Britain and Ireland who is playing these instruments with no C# ? Is there a secret community of players in C and G that we've never heard about?

 

So far as English sessions are concerned, many C/G players (whether 20 or 30 buttons) will play in C if they want to. It's our revenge on the fiddlers who like to play in A .

 

The fiddlers and other chromatic instruments grumble but have no real excuse for not joining in. Whistle and gob-iron players usually carry instruments in several keys. Only the melodeon players have grounds for complaint. On the other hand, C is actually a common key for English music, especially East Anglian, so quite a few melodeon players also have a C instrument, and many tunes can be played in C on a D/G if you think about it, and fudge the missing F natural.

 

Having said that, I don't see many players of 20-buttons. Those of us with 30 or more like to play in C simply because you can get the most out of a chordal style in that key, not because we don't have the notes. Or else we go with the flow and get G/Ds.

[Anglo-Irishman]

Given the G and D centric nature of traditional music from Britain and Ireland who is playing these instruments with no C# ? Is there a secret community of players in C and G that we've never heard about?

 

Tom,

Remember that key is only an issue when you're playing with others who can't change from their normal keys to accommodate you, like people with only a D whistle (and even with them, you share the key of G.)

For example, the guitarists I know would be glad to play in C rather than D - they capo at the second fret and use the chord shapes for C to play in D anyway.

 

And anyway, the concertina is loud enough and musically complete enough to play solo. It's the tunes that are traditional. The keys are merely a question of convenience for the instrumentalists involved, and in Irish music that's mostly fiddlers and fluters, whose easiest keys are D and G. So trad. music is not "G and D centric" - it's "fiddle centric"! G/D is the lowest common denominator. And who needs flutes and fiddles when he's got a 20-button Anglo?

 

Cheers,

John

[Anglo-Irishman]

(Edited to delete double posting)

Edited September 11, 2009 by Anglo-Irishman

[TomB-R]

And anyway, the concertina is loud enough and musically complete enough to play solo. It's the tunes that are traditional. The keys are merely a question of convenience for the instrumentalists involved, and in Irish music that's mostly fiddlers and fluters, whose easiest keys are D and G. So trad. music is not "G and D centric" - it's "fiddle centric"! G/D is the lowest common denominator. And who needs flutes and fiddles when he's got a 20-button Anglo?

 

Cheers,

John

 

I'm primarily a fiddler BTW John ! There's no value judgement in what I said, just my own experience.

(In English music of course there's the influence/dominance of the D/G melod**ns! )

 

So far as English sessions are concerned, many C/G players (whether 20 or 30 buttons) will play in C if they want to. It's our revenge on the fiddlers who like to play in A .

 

Fair enough. I'm not too impressed by fiddlers who can't cope with C!

 

can i make multiple submissions? cuz i can play something in G without using the extra rows... or i could play fair, and take a D tune down into the key of C.

 

No prob with multiple submissions as far as I'm concerned David. Out of respect for our hosts bandwidth and storage it might be nice to link rather than post if doing so.

 

Quick competition summary

All makes of instruments welcome.

Played on a 20 key if possible, or strictly "scouts honour" without using the third row if not! (Especially not the reversals.)

45 second length limit.

No guidance as to judge's preferences but obviously something that makes the best of a 20 key concertina is a good idea....

Cheers

Tom

Edited September 11, 2009 by TomB-R

[Azalin]

well, i would say that a lot of these concertinas probably go to people who want to start off but don't know what to get, and know that chinese boxes are not high quality. i have known several people who shop ebay this way.

 

can i make multiple submissions? cuz i can play something in G without using the extra rows... or i could play fair, and take a D tune down into the key of C.

 

Hey, please record that clip! I never had the chance to hear you beside our experiments a few months ago :-) A jig or a reel please ;-)

[david_boveri]

well, i would say that a lot of these concertinas probably go to people who want to start off but don't know what to get, and know that chinese boxes are not high quality. i have known several people who shop ebay this way.

 

can i make multiple submissions? cuz i can play something in G without using the extra rows... or i could play fair, and take a D tune down into the key of C.

 

Hey, please record that clip! I never had the chance to hear you beside our experiments a few months ago :-) A jig or a reel please ;-)

 

all right. i'm currently planning on doing the following things: concertina reel in C; winster gallop in C and G; a polka from sligo. i'm trying to think of a good jig or two to do: maybe an seanduine or kitty lie over? depending on my mood i might even do the sailor's hornpipe. the real question is: natural acoustics or echoey room, .