Little John

So you might think, but the D/G melodeon and the G/D anglo are different, insofar as one tends to play the melody in the lower octave on the melodeon and in the upper octave on the concertina. So the fingering is not the same - e.g. in the lower octave you start with a G/A button but an octave higher it's a G/F# button and the A is on the B/A button. So don't imagine it's a straightforward transition from melodeon to concertina. Also I believe the relationship between the two rows is different from concertina to melodeon, so if you use any cross-row fingering that won't translate either. LJ

I guess I'm "seasoned", so I'll throw in my two-penn'orth. Yes, it would probably work. All sorts of wierd and wonderful arrangements of notes can be made to "work". But what you are proposing is highly non-standard. It doesn't even seem to follow the basic anglo principle of having all the push notes in a given row play the chord of the key it's named after. If you learnt to play this system you wouldn't be able to play a "standard" anglo, and no-one else would be able to play this; making it essentially worthless. Your basic requirement is to be able to play both English and Irish music on one instrument. All I can say is that plenty of people play Irish on the standard C/G anglo, and plenty of people play English on the standard C/G. I'd suggest you make that your starting point. And actually, you could probably get both a decent G/D and a C/G for the cost of a custom special. LJ

I haven't insured my concertinas for years. When I got my first one (almost forty years ago) I insured it with a specialist company (can't remember who) and later insured it as an extra on the household insurance. When I got a second concertina the cost was so high for the two that I calculated I could buy a new instrument every 15 years for the same cost as the premium. (In other words, the insurance premium for a year was 1/15 of the cost of a new instrument.) That's all a long time ago now, so things might have changed. I'd be interested to hear from anyone with experience as to whether the cost has become more reasonable, although even if it has I doubt I would bother to insure them now; not having had cause to make a claim in all that time. LJ

Even a "standard" 42, 48 or 55 button Crane doesn't have an entirely consistent pattern. Playing in the keys of F, C, G and D majors (and associated modes) is easy because there is a consistent pattern. To play the "accidentals" you just move one row out. That is, in G and D you move one column out from the F natural to find the F sharp; and similarly for C# and Bb. But that breaks down in A major. The low G# is where you would expect it, next to the G natural. But an octave higher it is next to the A - effectively an Ab instead of G#. Playing in Eb gets worse because in the lower octave E and A are in the central column so for Eb and Ab (G#) you're suddenly jumping from the centre to the outside column and the whole scale pattern is altered. One just has to get used to a different pattern. (I think I'm getting there, but it's not automatic yet.) This is a bit sweeping. As I've mentioned elsewhere I have Bb2/B2 reeds (anglo style) where C#3 would normally be. Both notes are actually more convenient in that position than they would be if the scale were extended "to rule". Chords such as B minor, Bb major and G major (first inversion) are all easy to finger (all "spread", not as simple triads). And I use them so often I don't have to stop and think. So I would argue that these "out of pattern" notes are actually very handy in general. In fact I estimate that if I didn't have those two notes (and in such a convenient position) I would have to re-arrange the majority of my repertoire. LJ

Yes, it's probably in old high pitch, so it may not have been tuned since it was made. This means it could well be tuned to a mean tone temperament rather than equal temperament. You can test this by playing G# and Ab together (also D# and Eb together). If they sound out of tune it's a good indication that the instrument is in mean tone tuning. This will make the triads (three-note chords) and the major thirds sound much sweeter than in equal temperament. LJ

I would have thought that work hardening would make the reed stiffer and hence raise the pitch rather than flatten it. When I received my new Holden a few months ago the whole instrument seemed to drift sharp as I played it in. A mechanical engineering friend of mine suggested work hardening as the most likely cause. It was re-tuned within a couple of months and has been pretty well stable since then. LJ

Excellent! I wish I had the patience to learn something like this on my Crane. For what it's worth, I think I prefer the first recording. The greater distance to the microphone(s) smooths the sound a bit. LJ

Jim - I have only an air button under the thumb on my Cranes, so I can't really comment on playing notes with my thumb. I do, however, have some "out of pattern" notes on my Cranes; about three on each instrument. For example, on one instrument where the low C#3 would be on the left I have an anglo-style Bb2/B2 and on another instrument that button is G2/B2. I use them a lot so found no problem in getting used to them. Only the same difficulty as getting used to the (rarely used) G#5 on the right. So I'd suggest it's maybe more that it's odd playing notes with your thumb (or possibly the shape of them) than it is to do with being "out of pattern". LJ

You are right, of course, Don! As a Crane player I was just skimming the thread and should have looked more closely. I think the 36 buttons gives a usable range of notes. I have to say that I agree with Wim - the limitations are mostly in the mind of the player rather than in the instrument. I also agree that a small, light instrument has many attractions. My own Holden Crane is similarly a 6 1/4" instrument. Because it is has concertina reeds it manages to fit in 44 buttons, but obviously it is more expensive. LJ

On the LHS what you show as A1 is actually the air button. LJ

I don't know, but it sounds very similar to my Wheatstone single-action bass. LJ

Similarly I've sold three this year. All sales went well. Members of this site seem to be a pretty decent, honest lot! Two payments were by bank transfer and one by cheque. You end up paying the banks whichever method you choose - a fact of life I suggest. Cheers, LJ

I rather agree with that. The grip on the strap between the thumb and the palm is firmest point of contact with the instrument. LJ

I don't know about that - it looks fairly similar to my Wheatstone baritone which is 7 1/4" across the flats. Either way, I would suggest selling this as it is. If it's sharp it's probably in old pitch and also mean-tone tuning which some people might wish to retain; or at least like to try out before deciding how much re-tuning to do. LJ

Yes, the balance is one of the things I really love about it. By the way, if you're in Liverpool it was probably the 7.50 broadcast you saw. Alex's clip is from the 6.40 - 7.00 broadcast. I think (but I'd need to check) that the sound in the later one was a bit better. I'll see if I can post a clip sometime. LJ

Alex himself is only 20 - 25 miles away, if he's not too busy making new instruments. But I expect you'd already thought of him. LJ

That's right. I was in error in using the Pythagorean comma. I agree with Alex's figures (and hence Paul's too). The Pythagorean comma is what you get if you stack 12 pure fifths (the comma being the amount by which the note you return to is sharp of the starting note). The syntonic comma is what you get if you stack 4 pure fifths (the comma being the amount by which the resulting note is sharp of a pure major third). Yes, but technically I think ET is defined as the fifths being tempered by 1/12 of a Pythagorean comma. As I understand it, ET has a precise definition because it makes playing all keys identical, and 1/4 comma MT has a precise definition because it give pure (just) major thirds in the six usable keys; but the rest like 1/5 comma MT and 1/6 comma MT are essentially arbitrary. They are just nice fractions. No reason you couldn't opt for 2/9 comma, 2/11 comma, 3/14 comma or anything else you fancy. LJ

Sounds like you're quite intimate with the instrument!

Paul, it's quite simple really. On the basis of your table, on the right hand end D# will be -16.8 and on the left hand end Ab will be 19.6. The table simply increases (or decreases) by 2.8 every step. But note from other comments following your post that this might be closer to quarter comma than fifth comma; not that there's anything wrong with that, in fact the major thirds will be sweeter. LJ

I think Alex's figures are "right" in an academic sense, but one needs to remember that all tuning systems are a compromise as soon as you want to play in more than one key and/or introduce harmony. Geoff's figures might be closer to sixth comma MT and Paul's close to quarter comma MT than to fifth comma, but all three will be better than ET. LJ

I'm with Wolf on this. I've recorded different concertinas under exactly the same conditions - admittedly only on an iPhone - and whilst I can tell the difference, the timbres of the instruments and the differences between them bear little resemblance to the reality. Even traditional-reeded concertinas have a huge variety of tones, so it really is advisable to hear them in the flesh if possible before making a decision. Also, the feel of an instrument is something you can never get from a photograph or a description. LJ

Thank you for your kind comments. I'm talking principally about the melody, though whatever happens in the melody would be reflected in the accompaniment. Let me clarify. Pipe music is normally written in the key of A without accidentals. The notes of the scale as written are G A B C D E F G A although the C is closer to C# and the G closer to G# (and F is F#). C and G are the third and seventh notes respectively of the key of A. When the music is transported to a concertina or accordion it can't play the third and seventh that the pipes play, so it has to approximate with either a C or a C# and a G or a G#. In my limited experience both are used, and often within a single tune. LJ

It's true that is where the main point of contact is with the hand rest, but probably the strongest point of contact with the concertina is with the thumb end of the strap (not hand rest). The key, in my view, is to have the straps reasonably loose so that you can slide your hand in a bit if needed to reach particular buttons. In my (limited) observation of Hayden players it seems they don't use the little finger much if they can avoid it; but when they do they slide their hand through as described above. Take a look at the videos of Beaumont players on the Button Box website, and look closely at about 30 seconds in on the first video - you'll see what I mean. LJ

I play a couple of pipe marches on the concertina, though Crane duet rather than English or Anglo. I don't see why it shouldn't work on an Anglo. One observation I'd make. On the highland pipe the thirds and sevenths are flatter than in most other tuning systems. This means on a fixed pitch instrument you have to choose whether to play the major or minor third/seventh. In fact on the two tunes I play, which I learnt by ear, both are employed at different points in the tune. For the tune attached I have the notes as transcribed for fiddle and these are consistent with what I learnt by ear: in the B music the first time the seventh note occurs it is minor but everywhere else it is major. I'm playing this in G (equivalent to pipes in D) but since recording this I've changed to C (pipes in G) so that it and the tune I've paired it with (Miss Elspeth Campbell) use the same range of notes (even though, musically, the latter is in G). I can't see it matters what key you use. (Pipers don't worry about it when the adapt non-piping tunes!) LJ

Sort of, but it's not the full story. The only compromise on the Holden Crane was losing the Eb4 button on the left hand side; but that was for cosmetic rather than musical reasons. (It means the button arrangement isn't quite symmetrical.) The two bisonoric buttons I have on the left (Bb2/B2 and A2/Eb3) are a compromise of sorts, but derived from the fact that long before commissioning my Holden I'd modified standard Cranes in this way to extend the range downwards. It worked for me on those so there was no reason to change when it came to the Holden. The same reasoning goes for the C#4/B3 button on the right. I toyed with the idea of a separate button for B3 (as RAc) has but couldn't see any overall advantage for me. Incidentally, the bisonoric buttons give me almost two octaves on the left - A2 to G4 with only C#3 missing. The right hand is fully chromatic from B3 to C6; and all this in a small, light, 44-button instrument. LJ