Anglo technical question

[Azalin]

I've been working on some tunes lately that 'require' a roll on the LH F# button with the pinky and then some switching from F# to A back and forth... There are some places where I need to use the A that is next to the F#, using the finger next to the pinky.

 

These two fingers together are very weak and it's very hard for me to switch from one another efficiently.

 

My first question is: would players like Noel Hill and others phrase some tunes that way sometimes? or would they avoid having to switch from pinky to the next finger completely?

 

My second question is: if they do, is it something that can really be trained? I don't mind spending 1000 hours making the pinky and next finger stronger together, but I'd like to know if practice will indeed strenghten them.

 

Well, going back to the torture session, thanks!

Edited April 10, 2009 by Azalin

[David Levine]

Az-- what are the tunes in question?

The A on the G row is not one of Noel's first choices but you need it for lots of tunes. You would use that A after you play a LH press D/draw E on the G row - in the first part of such tunes as Chris Droney's (Bellharbor reel) or The Laural Tree.

Lately I've been playing this medley, which I find is a very good workout for the left hand:

http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltas..._danny_omahony/

[Azalin]

Well, here's two tunes I've been working on today, trying to relearn with cross-row fingering... In both tunes, using the A on the G row allows me to use the LH push D... I'm having a harder time with the pinky F# and A in the second tune, not very solid... would you phrase these tunes differently?

 

First reel

 

Second reel

[Theo]

My second question is: if they do, is it something that can really be trained? I don't mind spending 1000 hours making the pinky and next finger stronger together, but I'd like to know if practice will indeed strenghten them.

 

Thousands of fiddle players use the left hand pinky independently, including for ornamentation, so it must be possible to train it.

[Greg Jowaisas]

I believe it is Dana Johnsohn who says Noel Hill deliberately worked to strengthen and make his pinkie and ring fingers more independent. Noel said they did get stronger and more independent but it took years.

 

I'd bet that Noel's primary exercise was playing. I'd also wager that he made an effort to play slow enough for the little and ring to keep proper time and emphasis and only then would speed up a bit more. His rock steady rhythms, even involving the "triangle of pinkie death" ( d, F#. D). tell me he practiced deliberately and slowly until everything was in place and only then sped up.

 

Squeezing a soft rubber ball or a wad of putty can make your fingers stronger but don't forget to exercise on the extension as well. A thick rubber band can be useful.

 

Noel's primary "A" is on the LH c row. The 3rd finger "A" is the default note following a LH "d" or "e". It is also useful on a run or triplet of A. B (push) c#.

3rd finger "A" to F# is not uncommon. I do remember Noel saying he prefers to avoid crans with the pinkie because it is awkward. (Then he demonstrated several!!)

 

Greg

[Azalin]

Wow thanks for the info. Can you describe your "triangle of pinkie death" more? What are the three buttons exactly?

[Greg Jowaisas]

The triangle can be the LH pull D chord: "A" (index pull C row); "F#" (pinkie pull G row); "D" (third finger pull C row).

The jigs "Shandon Bells" "Apples in Winter" and "Temple House" offer plenty of practice with the triangle as well as some 3rd finger "A"s.

 

I also think of the F#, D, and E combination as in "The Rolling Wave" as another "triangle of no return" and good pinkie practice.

 

A cautionary note: I worked very hard on the triangle, sometimes for 30-40 minutes at a time and developed some tendonitis. Take lots of breaks; do your stretches and let your body get used to the routine. Better to take 6 months to accomplish your goals rather than to try and do it in 6 days and spend

6 months recuperating.

 

Greg

[Robin Harrison]

I can personally attest to what Greg says.

For years I played button accordion in a single row style and never used my pinky.........indeed it acted so independently from my intentions it was all but useless. For the past 5 years I have pains-takingly and painfully ( believe what Greg tells you!!) changed to a cross row style. After 5 years my pinky is now a useful member of my hand. Not perfect yet but it continues to get ever more controlled and stronger. The hardest thing was it kept " collapsing" ............it no longer does this.

I have also moved to a similar stlye on a 38 keyed anglo, trying not to lock my hands in a home key position. The pinky is critical for this ( on a G/D, the pushed E in a Jeffries layout in G tunes and using reverse notes from the G row in D tunes and playing different notes from all three rows on the left).

So yes, probably hundreds of hours of careful practise but it WILL work and to stress for the third time, be careful with the pain you will bring on .........don't try to push through it !

Regards

Robin

[Larryo]

The Slockit Light is another good 'un for all notes being discussed and also gives you an opportunity to go either up and down the G row or use both it and the C.Good for the high G# in the second part as well

[Azalin]

Allright, thanks for the tips. Sadly (or fortunately) I'm a bit lazy and usually never spend more than half an hour a day working on something very, very hard... so hopefully my laziness will save me from potential physical problems :-)

 

Here's another clip of a reel I've been working on today, again remapping all the buttons so that I use cross-row with the most satisfying bounce I could find... It ended up being pretty much ALL on the LH G row, beside the LH E and the RH pull C#

 

Concertina reel

 

I know I'm a bit irritating with the same type of questions but do you think this is something someone like Noel Hill would contemplate doing? I got this version from Edel Fox's playing in a session, and I'm not sure what buttons she uses, but using most buttons on the LH G row seems to make sense, with good bounce from LH push B to RH pull C#, and all the action seems to be in the same area on the G row.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Azalin

[JimLucas]

I know I'm a bit irritating with the same type of questions but do you think this is something someone like Noel Hill would contemplate doing?

Irritating? Not exactly.

Maybe a bit obsessive, though.

 

Unless you're planning a career as a Noel Hill imitator (will we ever see contests for "the best Noel Hill imitator", like there are now for Elvis Presley or Bob Dylan imitators? ), what does it matter?

Does it work for

you

?

Does it sound good to

you

?

I think these are the questions that should matter.

[Dominic]

Allright, thanks for the tips. Sadly (or fortunately) I'm a bit lazy and usually never spend more than half an hour a day working on something very, very hard... so hopefully my laziness will save me from potential physical problems :-)

 

Here's another clip of a reel I've been working on today, again remapping all the buttons so that I use cross-row with the most satisfying bounce I could find... It ended up being pretty much ALL on the LH G row, beside the LH E and the RH pull C#

 

Concertina reel

 

I know I'm a bit irritating with the same type of questions but do you think this is something someone like Noel Hill would contemplate doing? I got this version from Edel Fox's playing in a session, and I'm not sure what buttons she uses, but using most buttons on the LH G row seems to make sense, with good bounce from LH push B to RH pull C#, and all the action seems to be in the same area on the G row.

You don't need spending hours on exercises. practise short sessions very often, and play something you like between them to rest. To strenghten your fingers you can use the kind of "gym" exercises pianists use. My daughter had a book by Czerny with this kind of exercises.

Have you heard Calliach an Argid (The Hag with the Money) on Music from East Clare by Mary Mc Namara ? If you play it in Gmaj. it should provide your left hand a good workout.

 

Dominic

[RP3]

I think Jim has completely missed the point of this thread. It is not a matter of anyone trying to sound like Noel. It is more an issue of trying to develop good fingering habits. In imitating Noel on certain fingering issues, one can develop one's skills beyond their current level and most likely learn good fingering habits in the process.

 

Here's an example. Just cause something doesn't "work for YOU" isn't necessarily a good reason not to pursue it. When I was much less experienced with the concertina, I couldn't get my pinkie to go for the draw F# on the G row. So it didn't work for me - THEN. But I needed to learn to work that pinkie to advance. Nowadays I work on reaching the draw A way down at the bottom of G row.

 

I like Greg's analogy to the "triangle of pinkie death". This fingering comes up in a number of tunes. Also, there is the A,F#,A, ornament using the pinkie and the index finger. This would be preferable to trying to play the same notes exclusively on the G row -- unless using the index finger and the C row draw A creates some other problems with the fingering of successive notes. And, even then, you may find it better to stick with the index finger A and jump the next note - if ncessary.

 

So, whether you can use that pinkie or not, there is every reason to practice a lot until that pinkie becomes stronger and can be used as a more integral part of your playing.

 

Ross Schlabach

[Azalin]

I think Jim has completely missed the point of this thread. It is not a matter of anyone trying to sound like Noel. It is more an issue of trying to develop good fingering habits. In imitating Noel on certain fingering issues, one can develop one's skills beyond their current level and most likely learn good fingering habits in the process.

 

Yeah, I knew someone would end up with the famous "Does it work for you?". It's such an easy way out for people who don't want to spend the effort to reach deeper into things. Playing the whistle out of tune might work for a lot of people, it doesn't mean it's right. Playing with awful rhythm might also work for many people, and so on...

 

I asked about Noel because I know many people took lessons from him here. I could have asked about what Claire Keville or Mary McNamara would have done, but then, I doubt anyone here would know.

 

So, whether you can use that pinkie or not, there is every reason to practice a lot until that pinkie becomes stronger and can be used as a more integral part of your playing.

 

Actually, my problem isn't really with the pinky. I use it a lot, and I can switch to pretty much any button back and forth.... the exception being the finger next to the pinky, especially when pulling the A. So that's why I asked if it was a pattern that is sometimes used by Noel. (or Edel, Tim, Claire, etc).

 

I'd still like to know, based on what people know of Noel Hill's technique, if he would contemplate playing the 'concertina reel', which I posted earlier, pretty much entirely on the G row, the way I did practice it.

[Michael Eskin]

Specifically related to your original question about playing an low F#/A/F# triplet on the left hand, rather than use the pull A on the G row with the ring finger, at full speed, I would use the pull A on the index finger on the C row, or use a "phantom button" style triplet and leave the A out entirely.

[Azalin]

Specifically related to your original question about playing an low F#/A/F# triplet on the left hand, rather than use the pull A on the G row with the ring finger, at full speed, I would use the pull A on the index finger on the C row, or use a "phantom button" style triplet and leave the A out entirely.

 

Thanks. Actually, this wasn't my original question. My question was, does it happen a lot (using Noel Hill system for example) where you're going to play F# with the pinky followed by pull A with the next finger, on the LH G row... is there places where you're going to use both these buttons one following another, are they frequent passages?

[ceemonster]

my reply to that query would be that i never, and i mean, never, use that g-row A, and if i acquire another concertina, i am going to sub it out with the reverse of the e&f in the c row that drive me crazy because i only have them in one direction. you couldn't use the new subbed ones every time because they sometimes are blocked (i've been doing ghost-playing to see), but they could still be used quite frequently. (i am also going to sub out that super-low "c" and every last one of the super-high notes on the right side that are not used in itm music, in essence designing my own c/g/b-flat/f/e-flat concertina, but that's another story....)

 

the two principal left-side a's are more than enough to do everything i need, in the melody as well as ornamentally, including with the f# involved, and including at a good gallop---the pull one on the c row, and the push one on the accidental row, which, btw, i use a LOT.

Edited April 13, 2009 by ceemonster

[Azalin]

the two principal left-side a's are more than enough to do everything i need, in the melody as well as ornamentally, including with the f# involved, and including at a good gallop---the pull one on the c row, and the push one on the accidental row, which, btw, i use a LOT.

 

Thank you, now you got me worried and insecure bouhouuuu... I use that LH G row A much more than the push A on the accidental one, because I often use the LH push D, which requires my index finger to be 'free'. I know you can play very good music and have a great taste in phrasing so I think I'll try to get Edel Fox drunk next week-end and try to get all of her secrets about these 3 "a's". But seriously though I'm going to ask her straight up in the workshop, even if it doesnt have anything to do with what she's teaching... will ask her which ones she use the most and the least and why etc...

 

This button selection thingy is becoming my worse nightmare on the concertina, I'm used, as a programmer, to get straight, logical, black and white answers and solutions, but this is so totally chaotic to me.

 

PS: I've been practicing Lady on the Island and Virginia reel lately, and I'm using the push A a lot with those... and start with push A in Fred Finn's.

PS2: What do you think of concertina reel played almost entirely on the G row? Do you think I got it all wrong in my clip above? No need to be diplomatic, I can take it, I just need one truth :-)

Edited April 13, 2009 by Azalin