Wikipedia Edit War

[JimLucas]

[*]"As yet no great concertina player has recorded on a hybrid."

If you count YouTube, I don't think that's true. But even if you don't...

Are there no hybrids on any of the tracks of

Anglo International

?

(I can't check, because I lent my copy to a friend and I haven't seen it in over a year.)

In any case, this seems to me to be an opportunity in the making.

[Daniel Hersh]

My apologies for my role in contributing to thread drift here. I think what you've written below sounds good. The only change that I'd suggest is to remove the reference to "differences in the metal used", because I'm not sure there is a difference.

 

Daniel

 

I really think that the purpose of a Wikipedia entry is being missed by some of the contributors to this thread.

(...)

All the interested but ignorant reader of the concertina article needs to know is, "Mainly for reasons of cost, many modern concertinas utilise reeds of the type that are designed for more common instruments such as accordeons. Because of differences in the metal used, and the way they are made, the tone and response are different from that of purpose made concertina reeds. There are many players who have a strong preference for the tone and response of one type of reed or the other."

[John Wild]

Imagine looking up mini skirts.

 

I'll keep it in my imagination - I wouldn't want to get arrested! :rolleyes:

[jdms]

[*]"As yet no great concertina player has recorded on a hybrid."

If you count YouTube, I don't think that's true. But even if you don't...

Are there no hybrids on any of the tracks of

Anglo International

?

(I can't check, because I lent my copy to a friend and I haven't seen it in over a year.)

In any case, this seems to me to be an opportunity in the making.

 

Two people play Edgleys--Frank Edgley (naturally) and Tom Lawrence. Matt Dennis plays a Norman--that's also a hybrid, isn't it? My memory is imperfect on this. He's listed in the booklet under Harry Scurfield (who plays a Dipper), since they appear in a duet of "St. James Infirmary."

 

jdms

[ceemonster]

i warned you the first time around that anyone out there was perfectly free to "correct" your "corrections." you can fussbudget all you like about "consensus," but the wiki rules are the wiki rules, and anyone who likes is free to hop on there and edit away.

 

i'm not part of the edit war. but i think it hilarious. like a monty python episode, but even fussbudgetyier.

[Virgil Brett]

Does the wiki reader even need to know about this and why only address this issue for hybrids? If your going to talk about preferences for tones and response on hybrids shouldnt you also talk about the same thing for mass produced concertinas and for top of the range ones and also about preferences between makers such as why some people prefer a dipper over a suttner or metal ends over wood ones. Only talking about this for one group of concertinas is surely just another demonstration of personal pregudice and at the end of the day its all subjective.

[Frank Edgley]

JIM: "The measure may be in the instruments selected for recording. As yet no great concertina player has recorded on a hybrid."

This one's a real maggot pie. Too many assumptions are required to accept even arguing it. Does YouTube or Frank Edgley's web site count as "recorded"? What criteria are used to deem someone "great"? Why should that be "the measure", and what exactly is it supposed to be a measure of? Etc."

 

FRANK: This statement that no great players have recorded on a "hybrid" (I dislike that term) is more complicated than it may seem.

First of all what, defines a Great concertina player? Certainly one who has established himself or herself over a period of time as a very good player. Modern Italian-reeded instruments have not been around long enough to have been available when these greats were learning to play and establish their reputations.

Second, these great players have become comfortable with their instruments, and have no reason to change. It is asserted by some that hybrid instruments are very good, perhaps in some cases excellent instruments. Noone is claiming they are better than the best vintage instruments that great concertina players use. (BTW, how many great Irish players use Lachenals, Connors or even Crabbs?)

Third, most recognised great players in the Irish tradition, are from an area where there are probably more vintage instruments per square mile than anywhere else on Earth. These have, in many cases, been passed on to younger members of the family as older players have stopped playing or have passed on. Some of these players are starting to be recognised as great players. Also, in Ireland, one cannot underestimate the importance of tradition in selecting an instrument.

Fourth, it has been mentioned that Asher Perkins has appeared on my website playing one of my instruments. I contend that he is as great a player as many of the younger players coming up in Ireland. He plays weekly in the Detroit area---unfortunately not an area where he would normally get the attention his playing deserves. However, he did play at the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts a while back---on his Edgley concertina. While I do not in any way claim to be a "great" player, I used an Edgley to record on the Anglo International CD Compilation, and even though I have a Dipper, I used it on only one of the three tracks. On that recoring were Chris Sherburn, Mandy Murray, Noel Hill, Niall Vallely, Mary McNamara, and Kate McNamara. I believe that the tone of My Edgley stood up well in comparison with the vintage instruments, and certainly did not sound "accordion-like". Tom Lawrence in also a very good player---good enough to be included on this same recording, also playing on an Edgley.

 

Perhaps that is the problem with sites like the wikipedia. Anyone can go on and make statements & generalisations without the benefit of impartiality, knowledge, judgement or experience, and make statements which a casual reader may think true and accurate. I much prefer the wikipedia posting which is less jugemental.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Frank Edgley

[wntrmute]

i warned you the first time around that anyone out there was perfectly free to "correct" your "corrections." you can fussbudget all you like about "consensus," but the wiki rules are the wiki rules, and anyone who likes is free to hop on there and edit away.

 

i'm not part of the edit war. but i think it hilarious. like a monty python episode, but even fussbudgetyier.

I tend to agree that there is a somewhat Pythonesque element to this. But why can't that be part of the appeal? Any minute now I'll start singing about my life-long desire to have been a lumberjack (with, of course, a concertina accompaniament). Oh!, the mighty larch!

 

As for the rules of the wiki, one of the most important is NPOV or neutral point of view. It is one thing to point out that the use of different reeds can produce a different tone. That is a simple fact of how sounds are made. However, it should also be mentioned that other things impact the tone as well. And to say that an accordian reeded instrument sounds like an accordian is untrue (certainly at higher quality than the ElCheapos of the world, and arguably not even true with the ElCheapo). There are also several other highly subjective elements to the newer edit -- what makes for a 'great' player, for example -- which is also contrary to the rules behind the wiki concept.

 

ETA: Poll added.

Edited December 10, 2007 by wntrmute

[david_boveri]

What he does with them, I cannot say.

 

well, first he goes to his doorstep, then he picks up the package. he brings it into his house, and probably opens it up and then unpacks it. beyond that, i cant say either!

 

although that much is hard to say, because i myself have picked up instruments at the post office and then gone out to eat; i made quite the spectacle of myself trying to tear open the box in the middle of a restaurant with my friends.

 

I believe can set the record straight here. Over the last 60 days I have built and delivered three concertinas for Noel.

any interesting keys?

[Stephen Chambers]

... i myself have picked up instruments at the post office and then gone out to eat; i made quite the spectacle of myself trying to tear open the box in the middle of a restaurant with my friends.

You should have made it a game of "pass the parcel", then you could have made spectacles of all your friends too!

 

Could we add a fifth alternaive to the poll, something like:

 

5) "This is a wiki, so it's only written in sand anyway"?

 

It's why I haven't bothered much with them, because no matter how good your contribution is, somebody is going to come along and change it anyway.

[bill_mchale]

Ok, I am going to jump in with a couple of thoughts on this thread. I voted for the first option, because ultimately the second option is rather subjective and I believe with respect to the comment about accordion like tone, its just plain wrong.

 

Having started my musical obsession on the button accordion I am quite familiar with the tone. The vast majority of accordions have 2-4 reeds producing each note and these notes are generally tuned to some degree of wetness (though modern fashion often makes them very close together). Even if every other factor was mitigated, this factor alone is enough to make a very distinct difference in the tone of the the instruments. My Satarelle is tuned very dry, but I can always tell I have multiple reeds sounding. When we add the facts that the anglo concertina is generally no more than half the size of an accordion (and sometimes much less), the differences in how the reeds are mounted, the differences in materials used, the suprise is that anyone ever hears an accordion sound at all. Indeed, if my accordion sounded like my concertina, I would start pulling it apart to see what was wrong with it .

 

I will grant this, some hybrids have a tone that drifts closer to what an accordion with a single reed set engaged might sound like, but others have a very distinct sound.

 

Ultimately, though, this can of words should be reserved for the wikipedia discussion forums, not C-net.

 

--

Bill

[david_boveri]

... i myself have picked up instruments at the post office and then gone out to eat; i made quite the spectacle of myself trying to tear open the box in the middle of a restaurant with my friends.

You should have made it a game of "pass the parcel", then you could have made spectacles of all your friends too!

 

Could we add a fifth alternaive to the poll, something like:

 

5) "This is a wiki, so it's only written in sand anyway"?

 

It's why I haven't bothered much with them, because no matter how good your contribution is, somebody is going to come along and change it anyway.

 

i'm intrigued... is there such a game as pass the parcel? because i'm in!

 

i always thought kick the can was a metaphor for being bored. but, apparently, there is a complex game that (bored) children play, involving cans, safeties, and whatever else. so i'm not going to be quick to dismiss pass the parcel, either.

 

if there isnt a game, then i will have to devise one. i'm thinking a requirement of passing the parcel every so many secons, and whosoever gets it open wins. if you have the partial in your hand when its not your turn (maybe music stopping, too?) then you're out.

[toshea]

To add to the "can of worms":

 

I feel it is unfortunate that some important concertina players and certain persons who have responded to this thread have in the past referred to hybrid concertinas as "concertina shaped accordians"!

 

Now for those who can't affort right now a hugely expensive Jeffries or Wheatstone that is quite an insult!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And further, why do you have to refer to the reeds in hybrids as "accordian reeds". When they are produced and sold to Edgely, etc, are they produced with the intent of their being placed in accordians or concertinas? Or when Edgley makes his changes and tuning to the reeds are thy still "accordian reeds"?

 

Speak to me!

[Woody]

i'm intrigued... is there such a game as pass the parcel? because i'm in!

 

i always thought kick the can was a metaphor for being bored. but, apparently, there is a complex game that (bored) children play, involving cans, safeties, and whatever else. so i'm not going to be quick to dismiss pass the parcel, either.

 

if there isnt a game, then i will have to devise one. i'm thinking a requirement of passing the parcel every so many secons, and whosoever gets it open wins. if you have the partial in your hand when its not your turn (maybe music stopping, too?) then you're out.

Well here's a nice way of linking several of the issues together - see the "Pass the parcel" wiki. Of course, as traditionally the person holding the parcel when it's fully unwrapped gets to keep the contents, it could prove to be an expensive game to play with a Concertina, and a good way to lose a friend

[Daniel Hersh]

Rich Morse and Wim Wakker (who ought to know) have posted good info about this in the past. What we call an "accordion reed" refers to aspects of reed design as much as to the fact that these reeds are most often used in accordions. The proportions of an "accordion reed" are quite different from those of a "concertina reed", and there are resulting differences in the way the reed produces sound. [edited to correct a mis-statement of fact]

 

And further, why do you have to refer to the reeds in hybrids as "accordian reeds". When they are produced and sold to Edgely, etc, are they produced with the intent of their being placed in accordians or concertinas? Or when Edgley makes his changes and tuning to the reeds are thy still "accordian reeds"?

Edited December 11, 2007 by Daniel Hersh

[Michael Marino]

First we are discussing Wiki; which in my very humble opinion is a very bad joke and I am a member of it. There is a quote that is ascribed to Samuel Clemens though he in his life denied being the creator of though greatly agreed with it and it goes:

 

In this Great age (the Industrial age peak during the 1900's) we have more and more information at a mans disposal, the effect of such is this:

 

For all the Words the Meaning is lost.

In loss of meaning the Knowledge is Lost

Without this knowledge, Wisdom is lost

 

And for this we now have a society full of words and sensibility but lacking any form of sense or wisdom.

 

The Above is to my knowledge the complete quote though the wording may not be completely correct and I ask any who knows the full quote to please correct me.

 

Wiki is flawed, there is no way to correct it, but many of us try (yes we are very foolish).

 

I own a 20 button Lachenal (brass reeds), a Rochelle (need to ask Wim about a problem if I remember), and a Chinese nightmare 30 button English. I have friends who own Accordions and Melodions and they don't sound at all alike.

 

Now the Rochelle and the Chinese both have much better condition bellows than my Lachenal (which is something we are going to be correcting soon). But the Chinese and the Rochell also have very different sound characteristics as well. Though both use "Accordion reeds". Also the modern Accordion reed has changed over time and adapted properties in certain areas that where once assigned to the concertina. But that is just from reading the available history and construction books possible.

 

I also own a harmonium which sounds decidedly different than any of the above. The voice of a "traditional reeded" instrument of the time period when these instruments where in their hey day is different again from what you will find with many of the extremely well built modern instruments of either design due to the level of craftsmanship has once again returned to a high quality at a level of production that allows a greater amount of people to purchase the instrument. Wim and a few other also do many of us a favor by making and instrument that has the form of a higher quality instrument while keeping the price down.

 

Therefore it comes down to choice and personal opinion and to each their own and may they enjoy it as long as they don't shove it down my throat or try to make it an artificial "standard" that all shall be judged by. Surely the majority of this group is mature enough to stand on their feet and say the words " In my opinion" instead of trying to state that it is the reality of all.

 

Though I find it interesting that the persons who have edited it towards biases are makers of "traditional" concertinas and therefore place a great deal of discredit upon themselves by showing such open biases and contempt for "hybrid" built instruments.

 

Note Having had written discourse with the person whom those posts (those referred to in the above paragraph) where attributed to and having been informed that another person had been accessing the account during that time period. I retract my observation, as it is incorrect and the real world is a strange place.

 

Good on you for trying to fight the good fight but know that we fight nearly in vain (ask me about Italian Café sometime and i will show you a pack of lies parading as truths on Wiki and where to get the documents to prove it but you must read Italian)

 

Michael

Edited December 11, 2007 by Michael Marino

[Stephen Chambers]

For all the Words the Meaning is lost.

In loss of meaning the Knowledge is Lost

Without this knowledge, Wisdom is lost

Michael,

 

You remind me of some skirmishes I've had over the original, 19th century, meanings of words like flutina and melodeon, which were once specific but have since become more generalised. Sadly, more directly in the context of concertinas, Anglo is going, or has gone, the same way in very recent times, and perhaps it is the rise of the "hybrid" that is causing a blurring of the distinctions between Anglo and German (applied to bisonoric concertinas).

 

And yes, you might as well go and write in the sand on a beach, as write in a Wiki - it's all going to get blown/washed away...

[Richard Morse]

The proportions of an "accordion reed" are quite different from those of a "concertina reed", and there are resulting differences in the way the reed produces sound. One result of this is that a concertina reed requires a chamber to work properly, while an accordion reed does not.

Actually... accordion reeds do require chambers to work properly as well.

 

-- Rich --