Wikipedia Edit War

[m3838]

Free bass accordions are not true accordions, of course!

They are ... mm... Hybrids.

Basically anything with buttons, keys, connected by bellows, is "accordion", just because accordions are so prominent, and used to come in so many shapes and sizes, that concertinas just look like a weird one.

I think we can safely conclude that large instruments, with powerful roaring sound are accordions, and that small, round accordions with squeaky voices are concertinas. So a "Franglo" is concertina-like accordion, and Bandoneon is accordion-like concertina. Just like Ukulele is simply a small 4 string Hawaiian guitar.

The type of reeds should be mentioned in the description, of course, but statements like "accordion-like sound" are to be avoided as misleading.

BTW, my wife cathegorically refuses call my Morse a "concertina", instead she insists it's small "Garmoshka" (another common term in Russia, referring to all bellows driven reedy sounding contraptions).

[wntrmute]

Well firstly I'll think you'll find that animals don't produce Pollen, so that's a bit wide of the mark.

 

Don't they?

Plants make pollen. Animals make other stuff.

 

And I thought it's a common knowledge nowadays, that "traditional" (inexpencive German made 20 button) concertinas were accordion reeded.

Eh, kind of. Long plate reeds are still used in some accordions, but by no means all. Accordion reeds are different from long plate ones.

 

Like Stalin used to say: "No man, no problem".

Lenin said, "You can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs."

Stalin added, "You can't have that omlette, either."

[m3838]

And I thought it's a common knowledge nowadays, that "traditional" (inexpencive German made 20 button) concertinas were accordion reeded

Eh, kind of. Long plate reeds are still used in some accordions, but by no means all. Accordion reeds are different from long plate ones.

Are you talking about the reed assembly or rhe reeds?

In what way long plate reeds are different from accordion? It's like some russian players stubbornly refuse to accept the bayan and accordion is the same instrument. They say "there is bayan (surely superior), accordion and button accordion"

 

 

Lenin said, "You can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs."

Stalin added, "You can't have that omlette, either."

 

I'm impressed. I heard this joke back in my childhood, in the midst of USSR.

I'm very impressed.

[wntrmute]

And I thought it's a common knowledge nowadays, that "traditional" (inexpencive German made 20 button) concertinas were accordion reeded

Eh, kind of. Long plate reeds are still used in some accordions, but by no means all. Accordion reeds are different from long plate ones.

Are you talking about the reed assembly or rhe reeds?

In what way long plate reeds are different from accordion? It's like some russian players stubbornly refuse to accept the bayan and accordion is the same instrument. They say "there is bayan (surely superior), accordion and button accordion"

The wiki for the Bayan says that the bayan's reeds are rectangular and fixed to a long metal plate that is screwed, not waxed, into place. That is a long plate reed configuration, and the traditional type of reed for the German kinds of concertinas, including the forunner to the Anglo. Accordion reeds are (generally) waxed onto blocks in pairs, and the reeds themselves are not exactly rectangular, but trapezoidal. I actually had the bayan in mind when I said the long plate reed form was still in use. I'm sure, though, that there are other exceptions.

 

Lenin said, "You can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs."

Stalin added, "You can't have that omlette, either."

 

I'm impressed. I heard this joke back in my childhood, in the midst of USSR.

I'm very impressed.

That Stalin, what a wacky guy.

I'm not sure if I had made that up based on Stalin's famously pleasant manner, or if I'd heard it a long time back. I can't remember hearing it before, but that doesn't mean much. Russians have a wonderful grim humor.

[m3838]

bayan's reeds are rectangular and fixed to a long metal plate that is screwed, not waxed, into place. Accordion reeds are (generally) waxed onto blocks in pairs, and the reeds themselves are not exactly rectangular, but trapezoida

l.

 

Rectangular reeds are the result of adapting german technology for making accordions. Not for any other reason.

Plates are not screwed, but ratrher pinned in the manner of Bandoneons. Overall construcion is very much like bandoneons'.

Russians, like Argentinians, are very stubborn and don't like change. New technology accepted slowly. It's the reason for maintaining good old German way of making those instruments.

Modern bayans may have individual alluminium reedplates, waxed to the banks, unless they are hand crafted for top players to their specifications. I happen to have the bayan from the last batches of "true bayans". Very heavy, with "doleful" complaining tone, 2 reeds dry, no switches, three row with bone buttons. Superb bullet proof instrument, but with somewhat old, outdated deep action. New bayans are like piano accordions, have shallow action, waxed reedplates, switches, and very few have free bass, another characteristic of true bayan. All I'm saying, is that nomenclature is very random, arbitrary and not worthy of brocken spear.

[wntrmute]

A bandoneon is a kind of german concertina, so that doesn't surprize me. I have pictures of a german concertina's (which I'm starting to call an Anglo-Chemnitzer) reeds next to the El-Cheapo's reeds HERE. There's links to other pictures of the guts of both concertinas. The term is used very loosely in the case of the El-Cheapo.

 

On the left hand of the 'real' bayan, is it all free-base or are there chords, and do the buttons follow the same logic as the right hand keys? The one pictured at the squeezer wiki the two keyboards look quite different from one another, and the main wiki article said a varient of the stredella system (which includes chords) was used.

[m3838]

A bandoneon is a kind of german concertina, so that doesn't surprize me. I have pictures of a german concertina's (which I'm starting to call an Anglo-Chemnitzer) reeds next to the El-Cheapo's reeds HERE. There's links to other pictures of the guts of both concertinas. The term is used very loosely in the case of the El-Cheapo.

 

On the left hand of the 'real' bayan, is it all free-base or are there chords, and do the buttons follow the same logic as the right hand keys? The one pictured at the squeezer wiki the two keyboards look quite different from one another, and the main wiki article said a varient of the stredella system (which includes chords) was used.

 

I think a true bayan has Stradella only.

The new wave of true bayans had both, free bass and Stradella side by side, not unlike Hohner Gola, mainly because Russian craftsmen couldn't figure out how to make switches that didn't leak air, while receiving State salaries, enough for only a few bottles of Vodka.

But a yet another wave of true bayans of Jupiter brand, have 5 reeds per button and Converter bass with plenty of switches..

However, those masters, whose performance you can see on Youtube, play something very suspiciously Pigini-looking.

The only thing that differ Russian Free bass system form the rest is that keyboards on both sides don't mirror each other, but run like piano, making logical continuum. Again, it's more than likely to be a result of co-incident.

[Woody]

Well firstly I'll think you'll find that animals don't produce Pollen, so that's a bit wide of the mark.

 

Don't they?

 

No

[asdormire]

Well firstly I'll think you'll find that animals don't produce Pollen, so that's a bit wide of the mark.

 

Don't they?

 

Pollen is the name for the male sex cell distribution in plants. I think you had the right idea, just the wrong word.

 

We use it as a shorthand to describe this group of Concertinas in how they differ from traditionally reeded Concertinas.

 

And I thought it's a common knowledge nowadays, that "traditional" (inexpencive German made 20 button) concertinas were accordion reeded. English makers chose their own design not because it was better, but because they had it. It's their desperate attempt to survive in the market dominated by German instruments, that forced them start making Anglos for the commons, so their instruments were true Hybrids (yach ). So a purist should demand concertina with reeds, riveted to a single zinc plate.

 

 

Exactly, I have a concertina like that, and last time I checked, it is still a concertina.

 

Alan

[Mikefule]

Before I bought a concertina, after 25+ years involved in folk music, I had a vague idea that concertina players were somewhat elitist, and that the instrument had a slightly offputting mystique in way that melodeons, fiddles and accordians don't. Since I bought one, I have found that every conertina player I have met has been an enthusiast, more than happy to show me his or her instrument, and give advice. But if I were a complete beginner reading this thread and wondering whether to buy one, I'd think that <concertina players were somewhat elitist, and that the instrument had a slightly offputting mystique in way that melodeons, fiddles and accordians don't. >

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth

[ragtimer]

A bandoneon is a kind of german concertina, so that doesn't surprize me. I have pictures of a german concertina's (which I'm starting to call an Anglo-Chemnitzer) reeds next to the El-Cheapo's reeds HERE. There's links to other pictures of the guts of both concertinas. The term is used very loosely in the case of the El-Cheapo.

The "el cheapo" looks amazingly like a modern Stagi, both in the reed-cell construction materials (thin plywood), and especially the action. Does it have a brand name?

 

I have a total-loss clunker built much like your German "mystery" example -- zinc plates of five reed pairs each, but mounted vertically on cells. ANd straight wooden action like yours.

 

I like somebody's suggestion that we call "traditional" the authentic German style of construction you show on Flickr. It's as old, and well-established, as Wheatstone's techniques. --Mike K.

[JimLucas]

the classification of free reed instruments is more subtle and complex than your simple definition? For that matter, I wonder how many accordion makers and accordion players would class it as an "accordion". Very few, I suspect.

What, exactly, is your subtle and complex definition, then?

I didn't say "definition"; I said "classification".

[JimLucas]

As a side note, I thought the word "accordion" came from the French, not the German. Isn't "harmonka" the German word for accordion?

German. Demian, who patented the first accordion with the name accordian called it an accordion in Vienna.

I guess my memory of prior discussions was wrong. Well, accordions aren't a strong interest of mine. Sorry about that.

 

I would also propose the terms "Accordina" for the Franglo and its kin and the term "Concerteon" ("concertion" would likely be mispronounced as kon-ser'-shun instead of kon-ser'-tea-on) for the hybrid bandoneon and its kin. Alternatively, George and Mopsey would make lovely names.

I do think that Colin's franglo is real George, but I also know a few Georges who have neither reeds nor bellows.

[JimLucas]

The manufacturer is irrelevant. If Mr. Dipper makes a metal tube-shaped instrument played by blowing a raspberry into one end it's not a concertina but a horn.

I believe it's wooden, not metal. And neither he nor I call it a "concertina", we calls it a "serpent"... as do others. (And I think he did make the one he plays, though I'm not sure about that.)

 

I didn't suggest that all instruments made by Colin should be called "concertinas". I brought up his name to suggest that both because of his matchless experience as a contemporary maker and restorer of concertinas and because of the respect accorded his expertise by the concertina community at large, his opinion as to what is or is not a concertina should be given far more weight than the opinions of most people, even most concertina players, and even most other makers and dealers.