Anglo Top - English Flop ?

[nils]

I just got Padraig Rynne's and Noel Hill's CD before that Flook (with Padraigh), I ordered Jody Kruskal's........

I don't know how many first class concertina CDs I bought over the year, quite a lot.

 

All but one Anglo. Different music, different styles, a lot off great stuff.

 

But I'm playing ENGLISH!!

 

Are we the neandertalers of the concertina world, doomed to die out?

 

Of course, every now and then there is a new Simon Thoumire CD, a new Rob Harbron, but what else is happening?

 

My first thought is the Anglo has found its place in different types of music, but the English?

You can play nearly everything on the Engish, but there is no music that needs it. (Like Tango needs the Bandoneon.)

 

Any ideas?

 

Nils

 

(Hi Rainer, nice to have you here!)

[Mark Evans]

Are we the neandertalers of the concertina world, doomed to die out?

 

You can play nearly everything on the Engish, but there is no music that needs it. (Like Tango needs the Bandoneon.)

 

Any ideas?

 

Doomed to die out? Hope not. Neanderthal, hum...I rather like that. As to music that needs it....who is to say? We each make a space for ourselves. The English is a versital instrument and the minds attracted to it stubborn and very creative.

 

If our ranks shrink, then perhaps the price of an excellent vintage Wheatstone may drop within my buying range . Let evolution take it's course!

Edited January 29, 2006 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

I don't know how many first class concertina CDs I bought over the year, quite a lot.

 

All but one Anglo. Different music, different styles, a lot of great stuff.

 

But I'm playing ENGLISH!!

OK, and if you eliminate the Irish anglo players, how many? And even of those on Anglo International, how many have solo CD's?

 

But there are number of good English players, and quite a lot has been recorded. Maybe not a lot of new recordings in the last year. And maybe some of the existing ones aren't as widely circulated as they should be. Do you count song accompaniment? There's certainly variety!

 

I'm sure you have Alistair Anderson, Simon Thoumire, and Robert Habron. How many of the following do you have recordings of? ... John Nixon, Pietro Valente, Dave Townsend, Sarah Graves, Gypsophilia, No Band Is an Island, Lea Nicholson, Kristina Olsen, Wild Asparagus, Louis Killen, Riggy Rackin, David Paton, Rig a Jig, Spit and Polish, The New Mexborough Concertina Quartet, Douglas Rogers, Ian Robb, Mike Agranoff, Jeff Warner, ... the list is certainly incomplete. I don't think I've included in there any groups or compilations which include both anglo and English: Chris and Anne, John and Tony, Daddy Fox, Boxing Clever, etc.

 

Of course, there are still many of us who haven't yet done any formal recording, who ought to get off our backsides and do it. I'll bet we have more than enough for an English International CD. (And why not a Duet International, as well?)

 

Mark Evans has said he's working on his own CD. Maybe right now we're just building up pressure before the flood? One can hope.

[m3838]

EC was intended to replace a violin, as I remember.

As such it was destined to die out. And it did. It is still lethargic today, if you count number of violin players vs. EC. If a miracle happens, and there would be an EC player of Yehudi Menuhin caliber - EC will rise in popularity. So far, no such luck.

AC was intended as a folk instrument, and as such exceeds all expectations, except perhabs of those, who want real big orchestral sound - the BBox players. But the instruments are certainly within one family and a BB player can do well with AC and vice versa, and many of them do.

Then again: to each - it's own. Out of numbers of players named by Jim, I have listened to many (mp3, excerpts etc.) and it left me disappointed. Especially Boxing Clever, which I bought. There are much more good AC Irish players, than classical and other styles EC players, but unfortunately I'm not hot on Irish. I've got more than my share of Irish CDs, and long for some "other" music. I kind of hoped for duet plyaers, but most duet performers I heard, don't use the harmony sparingly enough and happily drown the trebble, which, btw, goes too high up and becomes thin, shrill and unsubstanial, while the full chords are roaring. But that's my taste and with it I share concern of Nils (although he may not agree with my assumptions).

The number is not the equivalent of quality, esp. when it comes to personal taste.

[Alan Day]

I totally agree Jim.

There is "English International" out there and like "Anglo International" it takes a bit of time to find the players,but they are there and of course many other players than the ones you have mentioned and of course wonderful old archive material just sitting somewhere for a compilation to be put together.

Even some of the compilations already released include English Concertina players.

It requires someone prepared to dedicate some time to put a compilation together and a Record Producer

with sufficient capital to risk financing such a venture, as the initial financial outlay is considerable.

There are some wonderful English players out there and with a bit of effort as Jim suggests you will find them.

Al

[JimLucas]

EC was intended to replace a violin, as I remember.

Actually, that's baloney! Some people at some various times in the concertina's history took advantage of the similarity in range and capabilities, but that doesn't seem ever to have been the English concertina's primary -- much less only -- use or even intent.

 

Wheatstone's first concertinas had a range more like that of a flute. What's more, while the concertina's first virtuoso performer -- Giulio Regondi -- may have taken some advantage of the classical violin repertoire, he was most noted for his own arrangements, in a style that could never be duplicated on a violin. There were many arrangements and even original compositions -- e.g., concerti -- written expressly for the concertina.

 

To the extent that it developed as a substitute for the violin -- and I emphasize "substitute", not "replacement", -- it was not for virtuoso performers, but for "drawing room" musicians (in the days before the WalkMan and iPod, when folks had to make their own music to be entertained) -- particularly women, -- who for social or other reasons couldn't play a real violin. Certainly there doesn't seem to have been any push to replace orchestral strings with concertinas, and as far as I know (Allan Atlas, correct me if I'm wrong) even groups playing string chamber music on concertinas did so mainly as part of a more varied repertoire which took advantage of the concertina's unique qualities.

 

In fact, concertina marching bands -- with some anglos and duets, but I believe primarily Englishes -- became a far stronger tradition and "consumed" far more concertinas than concert-hall classical music ever tried to.

 

As such it was destined to die out. And it did. It is still lethargic today, if you count number of violin players vs. EC. If a miracle happens, and there would be an EC player of Yehudi Menuhin caliber - EC will rise in popularity. So far, no such luck.

More baloney! The EC never "died out" in the sense you seem to be using. Its popularity did wane, but piano accordion players complain that the same thing is happening today with their instrument. And though Wheatstone in its Boosey & Hawkes days may have made more anglos than Englishes, it still wasn't enough to keep them in business.

 

And the EC has had its "Yehudi Menuhin's", its virtuoso performers, but their reputation has never depended on their being imitation violinists, "classical" or otherwise. The EC is currently rising in popularity, even if not as violently as the anglo. And the anglo's sharp rise can largely be attributed to the excessive popularity of Irish music, impelled by RiverDance, the movie Titanic, and Noel Hill. And Noel Hill's success is not so much in his playing -- though he is a virtuoso, -- but in his promotion of the instrument and of himself as an instructor.

 

AC was intended as a folk instrument, and as such exceeds all expectations, except perhaps of those, who want real big orchestral sound - the BBox players.

Expectations must not have been very high. Even today, with the recent huge swell in the number of "Irish" anglo players -- how many have been playing for more than 20 years? -- it's nowhere near as popular or widspread as the fiddle, mandolin, guitar, banjo, or whistle.

 

And outside of the Irish tradition, how popular has it become? In English traditional or "folk" music are there more performers on the anglo than on the English? I doubt it. Did John Kirkpatrick inspire more people to take up the anglo than Alistair Anderson did to take up the English? I doubt it. Are there more people using anglo for song accompaniment than using English? I don't think so. And how many people outside of South Africa are familiar with the concertina traditions in that country, which never "died out"? The "Boer" tradition includes Englishes and duets (both Crane and Maccann) as well as anglos.

 

But the instruments are certainly within one family and a BB player can do well with AC and vice versa, and many of them do.

Maybe so, but so what? Are you suggesting that the English concertina lacks popularity because there's no accordion with a similar keyboard?

 

Then again: to each - it's own. Out of numbers of players named by Jim, I have listened to many (mp3, excerpts etc.) and it left me disappointed. Especially Boxing Clever, which I bought.

To each, his/her own taste. Boxing Clever? With all respect and praise for those who put it together, I agree that it's not an artistic tour de force. I'm much more impressed by my casette of the concert given by the instructors at the 1993 Concertinas at Witney. Of course, both include "all three" of anglos, Englishes, and duets.

 

There are much more good AC Irish players, than classical and other styles EC players, but unfortunately I'm not hot on Irish.

You seem to be assuming that non-Irish -- or at least non-folk -- music is irrelevant to the anglo. 'Tain't so, as Anglo International demonstrates, though even that compilation misses some significant styles I've experienced, including blues, tango, ragtime, Swedish, pop songs, renaissance, and (yes) baroque. I've also heard all of these, as well as Irish and Morris, on the English.

 

I've got more than my share of Irish CDs, and long for some "other" music. I kind of hoped for duet players, but most duet performers I heard, don't use the harmony sparingly enough and happily drown the treble, which, btw, goes too high up and becomes thin, shrill and unsubstanial, while the full chords are roaring. But that's my taste and with it I share concern of Nils (although he may not agree with my assumptions).

The number is not the equivalent of quality, esp. when it comes to personal taste.

Agreed. However, there's a great deal of quality that hasn't (yet?) been turned into publicly available recordings. Would you care to suggest what sorts of music you'd like to hear? Bach? Mozart? Chopin? Glinka? Prokofiev? Joseph Lamb? Cole Porter? Gershwin? Jacques Brel? Elvis? Beatles? Something else? Maybe somebody will take up the challenge. (One can always hope. )

[m3838]

I'm not sure what you are arguing for, Jim.

Are you saying that concertina is well established musical instrument? No, it's not.

It's just as established as musical saw and a Theremin. (This is precisely what's drawing me to it, but that's beside the point).

If you are arguing that EC is as popular as AC, but then state there were much more ACs produced, but even that wasn't enough to keep producers in business - what's your point? Don't these statements contradict each other?

I have two Regondi's Albums: his concertina compositions and his guitar. He was better known as a guitar player, according to his biography, that I read. Sure he got into EC hayday and was probably the highest paid performer, but this fashion faded out quickly and he was rather depressed man.

 

> women, -- who for social or other reasons couldn't play a real violin.

 

What were those reasons? I'm not aware of them. Are you saying that majority of "drawing Room's" musicians were women? Interesting.

 

 

>In fact, concertina marching bands -- with some anglos and duets, but I believe >primarily Englishes -- became a far stronger tradition and "consumed" far more >concertinas than concert-hall classical music ever tried to.

 

You're trying to make a point in defence of EC and put everything together. I'm not saying marching bands are bad and classical is good. No matter what happened in the hight of concertina fashion - is gone now. Including marching bands. Everything waned way too quickly, perhabs because of fascination with the shape and craftsmanship, expectation from the new instrument, and little of what expected was matched. Perhabs a violin and fluite are still more expressive?

Perhabs the quality of concertinas are not up to professional expectations? If you disagree here, may I suggest interview with Wim Wakker, where he talks about inconcistencies of the sound throughout the range? This was my first notice, when I got a concertina in my hands. I was very surprised and disapointed. It's sweet-sweet-sweet-honk-sweet-rasp-choke-sweet kind of sound. Anglo seems to fair better because of the "chacky-chack".

 

>The EC never "died out" in the sense you seem to be using. Its popularity did wane

 

Hmm. I'm using it in the sense that it's popularity did wane. Solidly did wane.

 

>And the EC has had its "Yehudi Menuhin's", its virtuoso performers,

 

That's great, Jim. We haven't heard them playing, right? They died before the recording was invented, so how do we know? All we know that we don't have simphony orchestras with first concertina, second row concertina etc. The tradition hasn't being developed, the skill hasn't been passed on, compositions didn't catch up. Most of Regondi's compositions are nothing to write home about. No Mozart here.

 

> The EC is currently rising in popularity, even if not as violently as the anglo.

 

You make it sound like the stores are stocked with concertinas, but can't keep up with the demand of masses of enthusiasts, concertina CD's are sold in millions and an instrument is known outside the circle of few thousand players. Let's be realistic. And let's not shoot ourselves in a leg. Why do "you" need a popularity? To lose novelty? To be yet another squeezer among boring millions?

 

>And the anglo's sharp rise can largely be attributed to the excessive popularity of Irish >music, impelled by RiverDance,

 

I agree. EC too, since most people don't distinguish. It's one of those unexpected miracles.

 

>the movie Titanic

 

is a piece of CG effects crap. If this is a lever of EC popularity, we're in very bad shape.

 

 

> Even today, with the recent huge swell in the number of "Irish" anglo players -- how >many have been playing for more than 20 years? -- it's nowhere near as popular or >widspread as the fiddle, mandolin, guitar, banjo, or whistle.

 

Precisely! That's the point: concertina is not popular, nor has it ever been, even in it's "heyday". Didn't catch up. Accordion did, concertina didn't. Within concertina circle AC became more popular than EC, that's all.

 

> The "Boer" tradition includes Englishes and duets (both Crane and Maccann) as well >as anglos.

 

I looked it up. Seems to me that true Boer sound comes from cheap 20 button Anglo-German. I'm sure overpriced ECs and Duets were and are present too. But it's those cheap ones that made it happened. In Irish as well.

 

>Maybe so, but so what? Are you suggesting that the English concertina lacks >popularity because there's no accordion with a similar keyboard?

 

Hmm. No, that's not my point, but an interesting anyways. Come to think of it, may be.

How many of AC players present in this forum, never tried BB or don't have it as second instrument?

 

 

>You seem to be assuming that non-Irish -- or at least non-folk -- music is irrelevant to >the anglo.

 

No no, not at all. I'm just assuming that most of AC players play Irish music and most of the people, who know about concertinas, attribute them to Irish. Other applications stil seem to deal with clowns and monkeys.

 

>there's a great deal of quality that hasn't (yet?) been turned into publicly available >recordings. Would you care to suggest what sorts of music you'd like to hear? Bach? >Mozart?

 

Well, it's not much of whose music, it's who's playing. The least I'd want to hear some pop, be it Beatles or Quinn. I'd say, if you want musicianship from EC, you need serious music. You need it to be taught in concertatories, at least as a second instrument of choice. It's light, portable, fully chromatic, I'm sure it may have an appeal.

The problem though, this appeal may wane just as quickly, if EC is not modernized.

As it is now, it's not suited for serious music. Too inconsistent. And it has nothing to do with personal taste. If one instrument randomly sounds like two or three, it's not good enough.

My "new" Lachenal sounds like 5, but I don't care. And it's somewhat flat at places.

Can't care less. But I would expect top notch performance from my EC, even the cheap one. The music is different.

[hjcjones]

I'm just assuming that most of AC players play Irish music and most of the people, who know about concertinas, attribute them to Irish.

 

Really? That may be true of concertina.net, which appears to have a strong Irish bias. But there are current threads about Jody's "American" style, and about playing hymns on Anglo, so its not universal even there.

 

In more than 30 years of playing in both Irish and English music sessions (in England) I can only recall ever seeing one Irish-style anglo player - that was in a session at Whitby Festival many years ago. None of the Anglo players I know play Irish music on it (and I don't myself, preferring whistle or melodeon for that), whereas most of the EC players I know do. In all the Irish sessions I go to, if there are concertinas present they are invariably EC.

 

Other applications stil seem to deal with clowns and monkeys.

 

You've lost me there - what do you mean?

 

 

Howard

[Mark Evans]

Howard, Monkeys and concertinas? Man oh man was there ever a thread on that! It had legs and ran for several weeks, ooh-ooh ee!

 

Just thinking about that thread reminds me that Helen and Stephen have been missing for some time now. I miss them.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Mark Evans

[Chris Timson]

Whilst acknowledging some of the very good and well thought out responses to this thread, I have to say I thought that as a forum we had got past these "my dad is bigger than your dad" debates. Players of the English system should not need to justify their choice of instrument any more than anglo system players should.

 

I think that's all I have to say on this subject, really.

 

Chris

 

Just thinking about that thread reminds me that Helen and Stephen have been missing for some time now. I miss them.

 

I've just thought of something else to say after all. So do I.

 

Chris

[Robin Harrison]

Hi Nils............."are we doomed to die out'?

In the limited numbers that I see concertinas,at Morris events,English country dance,a couple of Squeeze in events.......................I'd say tha anglo is the doomed instrument if you judge just by numbers.The English seems to far out-number anglos,with an occasional duet to keep things interesting.

No science here, just casual observation.

Regs Robin

[JimLucas]

In the limited numbers that I see concertinas,at Morris events,English country dance,a couple of Squeeze in events.... I'd say tha anglo is the doomed instrument if you judge just by numbers.The English seems to far out-number anglos,with an occasional duet to keep things interesting.

 

No science here, just casual observation.

The results of observation depend on where you look. Got to a Noel Hill school, and you'll find (surprise?) almost all anglos. Go to a Bielefeld weekend and you'll see more of a balance.

[Theo]

And come to the North East of England and you will see English far outnumber Anglo. That includes people I see playing in public, and people who bring me instruments for repair and maintenance.

 

I think the differences that can be observed in various places are largely due to the availablity of tuition. Here in NE England Ali Anderson has been encouraging people to learn EC for several decades, and his efforts are bearing fruit.

[bill_mchale]

And the EC has had its "Yehudi Menuhin's", its virtuoso performers, but their reputation has never depended on their being imitation violinists, "classical" or otherwise. The EC is currently rising in popularity, even if not as violently as the anglo. And the anglo's sharp rise can largely be attributed to the excessive popularity of Irish music, impelled by RiverDance, the movie Titanic, and Noel Hill. And Noel Hill's success is not so much in his playing -- though he is a virtuoso, -- but in his promotion of the instrument and of himself as an instructor.

 

Excessive? Irish Music still isn't that common on the radio dial; best we can hope for is a program running an hour or two once a week, usually on NPR or a College Radio Station. Now granted, thats more than alot of other worthy folk traditions, but when you consider how much of the airwaves are dedicated to Rock, Pop and Country (Not to mention the blowhards of talk radio) I think it is safe to say that no folk tradition has reached the level of being excessively popular. Now if a girl ever rips my shirt off because I play Irish Concertina, we might be able to revisit the issue .

 

AC was intended as a folk instrument, and as such exceeds all expectations, except perhaps of those, who want real big orchestral sound - the BBox players.

Expectations must not have been very high. Even today, with the recent huge swell in the number of "Irish" anglo players -- how many have been playing for more than 20 years? -- it's nowhere near as popular or widspread as the fiddle, mandolin, guitar, banjo, or whistle.

 

Lets not forget button accordion as well. I think the biggest obstacle though to the Concertina in Irish Music is the price of entry. Most of the above instruments you can get decent playable (though hardly spectacular) instruments for well under $1000 and decent whistles are practically disposable (ok, some of the top end aren't but even then, they cost less than a decent student instrument).

 

 

 

--

Bill

Edited January 30, 2006 by bill_mchale

[Alan Day]

I have been sending out about three Anglo Tutors a week now for about two years.Anglos are far from dying out.In fact all concertinas seem to be on the increase,why are there not huge quantities of English or Duets being sold on Ebay ,Auctions and on this site? They are out there,with new concertinas being supplied all the time by manufacturers.We are on a rising market and prices will follow that pattern.

Al

[bill_mchale]

Whilst acknowledging some of the very good and well thought out responses to this thread, I have to say I thought that as a forum we had got past these "my dad is bigger than your dad" debates. Players of the English system should not need to justify their choice of instrument any more than anglo system players should.

 

I think that's all I have to say on this subject, really.

Well said Chris. Its one thing to occasionally to joke about one or the other, but to seriously suggest that one is better than the other? I do recommend people take up Ango Concertina if they are interested in Irish Music, but only because there is very little support for those who play it on the English (and with a name like English in Irish Music.. really ). It would be very interesting to see if someone could develop and popularize an English Concertina style. There is one guy who occasionally comes to our session to play English and he is quite good; it definitely doesn't sound like an Anglo.. but it works well in the Session.

[nils]

To make my idea for this thread a bit clearer:

 

There are lots of good things happening around anglo concertinas (recordings, new makers etc.)

 

What can we english players do for our instrument?

 

For example: Why are all the old recordings of Alf Edwards and Alistair Anderson not accessible for someone who is not collecting records for more than 30 years? Can we do anything about it?

 

Alan's Tutor, a good example!

 

Who could write tutors for "folk" english, "jazz" english, the best tutors I know are 30 and 50 years old and out of print. (I don't know Wim's and Pauline's tutors, they might fill the gap. Concertina Accademy is a great idea!)

 

I'm not frustrated with the concertina, just the opposite!

 

And I thought concertina.net could be the place to breed new ideas.

 

Nils

[JimLucas]

....with a name like English in Irish Music.. really ).

C'mon, Bill. How is "Anglo" any better?