Anglo Top - English Flop ?

[Brian Peters]

I tend to try and stay out of these debates. However, as I don't play the English system I feel as though I can be a little more objective than usual

 

Stuart, if I'm right in thinking you're the only former member of The Fall currently subscribing to Concertina.net (well that's what it said in the Guardian), I think that gives you a greater degree of objectivity than anyone else in the room.

 

Other than that I've nothing useful to add to this rather overheated thread, except that Howard Jones (Hi Howard, long time no see) seems to have nailed quite a few of the points.

 

Brian-plays-English-music-on-an-Anglo

[Paul Read]

 

>List of Morris and Sword Sides...use concertina,

 

Yes, perhabs. Moslty Anglo.

BTW, all my British friends have very ironic attitude towards Morris. So I'm not sure how really popular it is even in England, but I guarantee you, that Morris popularity wanes in geometric proportion with the distance from England. I'm not sure what are you trying to say, Jim.

 

 

 

Okay, I was keeping out but there are a few sweeping statements that have drawn me in (for this one short posting, honest) -

 

I've also observed this rather sad ignorant attitude towards the Morris to be somewhat prevalent in England. I think this is partly due to the gutter press approach of demonising something and partly due to the great popularity of morris through the late 50s to the 80s where, as has also happened with football (soccer), the few have given the rest a bad name.

 

If most of your friends have an ironic attitude towards Morris, I would suspect that your social circle is somewhat removed from the folk world in England. Of course in English society these days the majority does not make its own entertainment but prefers to look for passive entertainment provided by overpaid 'stars' - interestingly also promoted by the gutter press.

 

Another example of general public ignorance of their folk heritage in England is this tendency to think that there is no folk tradition beyond Irish and that 'Celtic' means Irish. Not true but a sign of the simple public attitude in England.

 

Fortunately, other countries, including Scotland cherish their music and dance heritage.

 

Finally, I think you would know, if you were involved in the morris, that it is thriving in in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US - all quite a distance from England. And there it is appreciated.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Paul Read

[Mark Evans]

As Ken mentioned in another thread, what do we as players of either EC or AC work on to overcome the limitation of our respective insturments:

 

Use of the Bellows is something I have become intrested in and through an odd route. Dominique and I were watching a program on Yehudi Menuhin (mentioned in this thread I think). She all of a sudden said "I don't like the way he doesn't breathe with the phrases". Huh? Well, sho' nuf', he uses his bow as if it were the bellows on an EC. Lines just seem to go on forever. Drop dead beautiful, but no connection to breath or the human voice (who says it has too).

 

That got me to thinking about my use of bellows and I found myself wanting. So back through my rep I go prodding and poking. Anglists must think about breath to phrase through their particular technical limitations and it lends an organic element I find compelling. I don't want to imitate what I'm not, but being aware and using a bellows change to a positive effect has been well worth the exploration. It has been particularlly nice in song accompanyment and the use of drones.

 

P.S. It ain't hurt my TIM rep either!

Edited February 1, 2006 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

There are probably lots of reasons why EC never became established as a classical instrument, .... To me, it seems probably that the main reason is simply that there isn't a place for it - the tone and range it offers is already covered by the violin family. The concertina simply doesn't fill a musical gap in the orchestra.

Well, the "classical" music culture is pretty much based on music -- and instrumentation -- from the 19th century and earlier. Yes, they sometimes play more recent compositions, but many of even those are deliberately designed for the traditional instrumentations (e.g., orchestras, string quartets). As far as I know, no new instruments have been accepted as a standard component of the orchestra since the introduction of the Boehm system woodwinds, and they're only technological "improvements" of instruments already in use.

 

Many new instruments have been invented in the meantime, but they have not been widely used by "classical" composers. Aside from "Bolero", what orchestral pieces can you think of that use saxophone? There are many people who play classical music on piano accordion, and some even make a living at it, but I'm not aware of any major orchestra -- or even minor one -- that has as a permanent member someone who only plays accordion, banjo, or mandolin. Is there some particular reason we should expect the concertina to be an exception?

 

Well, that shouldn't be surprising. Verdi, Bach, Beethoven, Strauss, Wagner... these were the "pop" music of their days, but now they're museum pieces. If you want want to see innovation and experimentation, you need to look at contemporary popular music in its many forms through the years: the saxophone and vibraphone becoming jazz standards, the rise and fall of "big bands", the universal spread of guitar, electric guitar, electric bass, electronic keyboards, electronic "effects", video....

 

I'm not sure whether the concertina will ever achieve mass popularity. At times, I hope not. But like the autoharp, steel guitar, and low whistle, it is (or they -- the different kinds -- are) currently surviving quite comfortably in various musical genres, in no imminent danger of extinction. And I'm happy with that.

[stuart estell]

I tend to try and stay out of these debates. However, as I don't play the English system I feel as though I can be a little more objective than usual

 

Stuart, if I'm right in thinking you're the only former member of The Fall currently subscribing to Concertina.net (well that's what it said in the Guardian), I think that gives you a greater degree of objectivity than anyone else in the room.

 

Curses, I've been rumbled! Yes, the Guardian article was telling the truth, and that was me...

 

Actually, I did some work with an ex-Fall keyboard player last year, and there should be a track which features a bit of MacCann duet on it coming out on a compilation of new music from Manchester sometime in the next few months...

[Brian Peters]

Actually, I did some work with an ex-Fall keyboard player last year, and there should be a track which features a bit of MacCann duet on it coming out on a compilation of new music from Manchester sometime in the next few months...

 

I always thought it was a pity The Fall never featured concertina as prominently as they might. Full marks for steering the instrument into uncharted waters, Stuart, though "new music from Manchester on a MacCann" is getting us somewhat off the thread. What's that got to do with the predominance of Anglo in Irish music (or indeed, the predominance of Irish in Anglo music)?

Brian

[Mark Evans]

I agree verbatim Jim. The "Classical" (thank you for the in quotes) World is not known for encouraging innovation. The new Artistic Director of Bostons big orchestra has been on a mission to "educate" their audience with 20th century and even comtemporary composers. Subscriptions are off and the Back Bay Brahmans are bridling at his assumption that they need education.

 

I am sorry to say that I think concertina has had its hayday with a "classical" moment in the sun during the Victorian era. Artists like Wim and Pauline represent a revival of an art form almost lost. I find it encouraging that they have devoted themselves and become masters. Only time will tell if they are a vangard of a growing revival or a loyal remanent. A laudable lifes work either way. One thing I must further complement Pauline on; her contemporary composers' work. The EC's pure, yes pure tone (senza vibrato) is a match made in heaven with the contemporary composers palette.

 

New instruments in a modern era orchestra? Ha! You are quite right about the saxophone. A colleague of mine still loves to say "that is a French oddity." He is the same "professor" who told me I almost made the concertina sound like a legitimate instrument .

 

If I worried about what people thought of me or my musical choices, I'd have long ago crawled off and expired. AC, DC and EC players are a hardy lot and not unlike Morris dancers (as mentioned in another thread) don't give a sheit about what others think of them.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Mark Evans

[stuart estell]

though "new music from Manchester on a MacCann" is getting us somewhat off the thread. What's that got to do with the predominance of Anglo in Irish music (or indeed, the predominance of Irish in Anglo music)?

Brian

 

Apologies for the digression I think it can be tied together though, in a way - I wonder if, sometimes, we don't worry about conventions and technical details of the instruments we play at the expense of the really important thing: making music. Convention is a good thing in some ways: it can offer received wisdom and make it easier for people to decide what path to follow; it also makes judging relative quality easier - as I understand it the world of Irish music can be quite competitive, so therefore it makes sense that a strong convention, once established, would continue to dictate that the anglo is the "standard".

 

Where conventions become detrimental is the point at which what might only be received wisdom is considered, however wrongly, to be absolute truth. I wonder how many people interested in Irish music have decided against learning the concertina because the anglo system doesn't suit their brain, simply because the received wisdom is that you "must" use an anglo. Of course you don't have to use an anglo. The important thing is that you can do exactly what you want, but you have to be prepared for the fact that other people might not like you doing it.

 

If I worried about what people thought of me or my musical choices, I'd have long ago crawled off and expired. AC, DC and EC players are a hardy lot and not unlike Morris dancers (as mentioned in another thread) don't give a sheit about what others think of them.

 

Snap

[Mark Evans]

Wise, wise man Stuart! I've just decieded to join the Monster Raving Loony Party!

Edited February 1, 2006 by Mark Evans

[rainer]

hi nils!

 

nice to meet you here...

 

as for english concertina recordings don't worry: i'm working on a cd

hopefully at least a demo-cd will be done within the next weeks.

 

concerning tutors i think it can be sometimes even more helpful to use such that are basically made for other instruments, according to the type of music you want to go for. like pietro valente who once said that he learned playing the concertina with an accordion tutor, using the exercises for the right hand.

 

i played the concertina for about 7 years without knowing anyone else doing so or even without having listened to someone playing, be it concert or recording. that is why i never thought about what music should or could be played on concertina and what shouldn't. i chose the concertina at the age of 20 just because it wasn't popular. i didn't want to play accordion, with all the russian players you meet every day in the streets, playing like i would never be able to; or learn the bandonion with everyone telling me: do you know astor piazolla? play tango! (actually quite a lot of people still tell me so, even though i play the concertina )

 

this lack of popularity of the concertina has advantages as well as disadvantages: when playing you get some attention because you're so "special". and people don't always compare your playing to something they've heard before. on the other hand when i perform in a place where people don't know me they often will not come because they have no idea what this is going to be...

 

in my opinion the concertina never made it in classical music because of the fact that it's sound is not as "individual" as that of modern classical instruments. what i mean: if you compare an old violin from renaissance time to a modern violin (let's say from 19th century on...) you will see that the modern one has a tone that can be modulated much more. it has more overtones, you have a broader range of dynamics. the sound of the old instrument is straighter, more simple in a way. that has nothing to do with better or worse!

or think of the row: cembalo, hammerpiano and modern grand piano. (do you get what i mean? i'm not used to talk about this in english!). especially the dynamics are a problem. if you see the range between the softest and the loudest sound on concertina and that on violin, or trumpet and so on.

 

i saw wim wakker perform accompanied by grand piano.

for me it didn't go together at all. it was like someone on a bycicle being followed by a formular-1 racing car.

apart from that, to me the music originally composed for concertina is just still played (or played again) because of the fact that it is orinally for concertina, and not because the music itself is worth it (i'm generalizing!). it's not at all that classical music doesn't work out on concertina. but you have to find out what and in what way. bach's compositions for violin solo, some chopin waltzes (you have to leave out a few notes, of course), some of the simple piano stuff from bartok or shostakovich is nice. and if you want to play accompanied why not chose the cembalo, or lute or ...

 

we have to find out what's special on cncertina. where's the concertina's contribution to the musical world. and combine this with want you want to express.

 

i once heard a virtuoso playing bandoneon on some tango event. it was very impressing. than robbi pich played his version of "cumparsita" on concertina and that really touched me!

 

what i'm trying to say is that concertina players should be much more open. not think about anglo or english or about classic or folk. nor about what was composed for concertina. just play and listen. be curious.

 

i was actually quite disappointed when i was in witney in 2004. there were so many concertina players at all levels of ability. many of them knew eachother. i was there for the first time, and there was hardly anyone seeming to be interested in what this guy coming all the way from berlin, obviously not a beginner, brought with him. uff! this sounds like some ego stuff... don't get me wrong. of course there was lots of things going on, workshops, concerts... and still!

 

well, i'm not quite sure where this brought me. i didn't intend to write that much!!!

 

what i wanted to say: if there is some english player about to "die out" - as nils put it - wanting to get rid of his lachenal edeophone, just conctact me!

 

best regards from berlin!

 

rainer.

[fiddlersgreen]

Wow, I have not read this much since High School, and all those big words! Concertina players sure are an intelligent bunch......It has been fun and enlightening. I play Irish, contradance and old-time on the EC so far. I am trying to learn all those same tunes on the fiddle (a humbling experience). I don't read music so the classical and concertina bands are not on the horizon but I do intend to visit the local woman’s Morris team practice to learn a couple of their tunes (a friend is the fiddle player) and visit a sea shanty session which I understand they have in the area. On closing, I think it a great learning experience to play along with the other type of concertina (EC with Anglo or Duet) on a one to one basis, without all the other session instruments, so you can understand the differences and try and make you instrument compliment the other. Mike

[Mark Evans]

hi nils!

 

in my opinion the concertina never made it in classical music because of the fact that it's sound is not as "individual" as that of modern classical instruments. what i mean: if you compare an old violin from renaissance time to a modern violin (let's say from 19th century on...) you will see that the modern one has a tone that can be modulated much more. it has more overtones, you have a broader range of dynamics. the sound of the old instrument is straighter, more simple in a way.

 

i saw wim wakker perform accompanied by grand piano.

for me it didn't go together at all. it was like someone on a bycicle being followed by a formular-1 racing car.

 

Hello Rainer. Glad you are here. This is your first post I have had the pleasure to read. Now if I may, a slight dissagreement:

 

A late Renaissance violin is in the case of the Creme de la creme artists the same instrument. True the neck has been re-set at an angle, the strings are steel, not gut and the bow has been re-designed. Playing styles are now different, vibrato and more extreme dymanics. Then there is pitch. When you get down to it, very little technical advancement, just use.

 

Wim up against a modern grand, well I prefer to think of it as a beautiful instrument up against a monster. With the top up they can overwhelm anything including a 747. I hate doing recital literature with one particularlly a concert grand (9 footer). My voice simply cannot compete if someone is heavy handed. Other than that I think a concertina/piano combination is very natural.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Mark Evans

[allan atlas]

FOLKS: that's an awful lot of stuff to cut through. . . . .so let me pick and choose. . . . .

 

(1) there is a vast repertory that calls specifically for the English concertina. . . .the repertory that was written for it during the 19th century. . . . . . .that repertory is varied with respect both to quality and to the technical demands that it makes. . . . . .why there is such resistance to looking at it i will never understand. . . . . .i would think that those interested in the concertina "as an instrument" would at least give the stuff an occasional whirl. . . . . .moreover, the music is now quite accessible through the ICA library (one no longer has to deal with the British Library). . . . . .i might also add that there are some pretty good pieces written for the instrument during the last twenty or so years. . . . .Alistair Anderson's ON CHEVIOT HILLS comes to mind. . . .and there are two very good pieces by the late Oliver Hunt and the russian-american composer Alla Borzova. . . .the latter has been published by Wim Wakker's Concertina Connection. . . . .

 

(2) i really do not think that the concertina was conceived primarily as a "substitute" for the violin. . . . .though it certainly can play a sizeable portion of the violin repertory. . . .in fact, that was one of the 19th-century manufacturers' standard "leitmotifs". . . . .that the concertina could make that repertory (and that for certain wind instruments) accessible to those who had neither the time nor the talent to learn those other instruments. . . . .the main pitch here being that the concertina was a "fixed pitch" instrument. . . . .it played in tune all by itself. . . . . .

 

(3) as for the women. . . . .i have been working on this topic for the last three years. . . . .and i've just about completed an article entitled "Ladies in the Wheatstone Ledgers: The Gendered Concertina in Victorian England, 1835-1870", which i intend to submit to the RESEARCH CHRONICLE of the Royal Musical Association before this current semester (how i measure time) is out. . . . . .quickly: the wheatstone sales ledgers record more than 15,000 transactions. . . .of these, i count 1,798 that refer to women. . . . .and these in turn refer to 978 different women. . . . . .all told, the women account for approximately 12% of the transactions. . . .now that has to be qualified. . . . .for instance, we cannot tell how many instruments that were bought in bulk by other instrument dealers ended up in the hands of women. . . . . . so the percentage of concertinists who were women could be somewhat higher . . . .in addition, we know that some women concertinists are not included in the ledgers. . . . .perhaps they played instruments made by others (the Lachenal sisters for example). . . . perhaps they purchased instruments from other dealers. . . . .it's hard to say. . . . .i provide a list of twenty-seven such women, all but one of whom either performed publically or taught the instrument (there are notices about their performances in the press. . .there are advertisements for the teaching services). . . . . .

 

(4) the sales pitch to women consisted of the following: (a) the instrument was easily portable; ( it was relatively easy to learn (at least in the beginning); and © it provided women with the opportunity to play music written for the violin and flute, instruments that were otherwise off limits to them until the 1870s (the violin) and 1880s/90s (flute). . . .and if they had a "consort" of instruments, they could even play the likes of Haydn and Mozart quartets (then never mention Beethoven in that respect, though the Regondi, Blagrove, Case, Sedgwick Quartet played him). . . . . . .

 

(5) there are some really fine English players around today. . . . .among whom there are at least three who more or less "specialize" in the victorian repertory: Douglas Rogers (who will be performing in New York on March 17th. . . at the CUNY GRADUATE CENTER. . . in our VIVA REGONDI concert -- sorry, had to plug our concert, especially since ticket sales are moving at a crawl). . . .Wim Wakker. . . . .and i hope that i might even include myself in that company. . . . . .

 

well, as i said: i picked and i "choosed". . . . .allan

[allan atlas]

FOLKS: i knew there was one other point that i wished to make. . . . .sorry that i forgot to make it the first time around. . . . .

 

someone said that Regondi was more famous in his own day as a guitarist than he was as a concertinist. . . . .this is arguable. . . . .there is a mid-century review by the curmudgeonly critic of THE ATHANAEUM, Henry Fothergill Chorley. . . . he writes that Regondi gave up the "poverty" of the guitar for the even "greater poverty" of the concertina. . . . . .in addition, Regondi's own output for the concertina far outweights in number his output for the guitar. . . . . .

 

in any event, it's fair to say that he left a "legacy" on NEITHER instrument. . . . . .he was quickly forgotten. . . . . .allan

[allan atlas]

that's "outweighs"............sorry...............Allan

[bill_mchale]

(3) as for the women. . . . .i have been working on this topic for the last three years. . . . .and i've just about completed an article entitled "Ladies in the Wheatstone Ledgers: The Gendered Concertina in Victorian England, 1835-1870", which i intend to submit to the RESEARCH CHRONICLE of the Royal Musical Association before this current semester (how i measure time) is out. . . . . .quickly: the wheatstone sales ledgers record more than 15,000 transactions. . . .of these, i count 1,798 that refer to women. . . . .and these in turn refer to 978 different women. . . . . .all told, the women account for approximately 12% of the transactions. . . .now that has to be qualified. . . . .for instance, we cannot tell how many instruments that were bought in bulk by other instrument dealers ended up in the hands of women. . . . . . so the percentage of concertinists who were women could be somewhat higher . . . .in addition, we know that some women concertinists are not included in the ledgers. . . . .perhaps they played instruments made by others (the Lachenal sisters for example). . . . perhaps they purchased instruments from other dealers. . . . .it's hard to say. . . . .i provide a list of twenty-seven such women, all but one of whom either performed publically or taught the instrument (there are notices about their performances in the press. . .there are advertisements for the teaching services). . . . . .

 

Another factor you are not considering is how many of the concertinas bought by men actually were for their wives, sisters or daughters? Consider that if we looked at Automobile Sales ledgers from the 1950s and 60s we would probably see that the vast majority of cars were sold to men. But that doesn't mean that there were not almost as many female drivers as male drivers (particularly later in the period).

 

The other question I would have here is this; you say 12% of transactions involved women. What percentage involved non-dealer males?

 

--

Bill

[allan atlas]

DEAR BILL: in fact, i mention your first point in the article. . . . .who knows how many of the instruments purchased by men ended up in the hands of wives, daughters, and sisters . . . .there is simply no way of knowing. . . . . .in other words: that 12% is the bottom line, the percentage of transactions that refer explicitly to women. . . . . .

 

as for the percentage of non-dealer males: i simply do not know. . . . . .and i skirt around that in the article, noting only that the majority of males named are not dealers. . . .though since the dealers usually bought in bulk, the ratio of non-dealer males named to dealers is NOT equal to the number of concertinas sold to male non-dealers as opposed to those sold to dealers. . . . .NOW THAT WAS CLUMSY..............

 

all in all, it's an absolutely fascinating tale that the ledgers tell. . . . . . . . .among the women: the duchess of wellington and lady emily bulteel (great X2 grandmother of the late Princess Diana). . . . .what was most surprising, at least to me, is the number of professional women musicians who were NOT primarily concertinists who are mentioned in the ledgers. . . . .thus there are professional singers and pianists. . . . .a number of them quite well-known mainstays of the london concert scene. . . . . .indeed, many of them appeared on stage together with regondi, blagrove, and case. . . . . . one supposes that they at least dabbled with the instrument. . . . . .still another surprise: the number of women who were Professors of both concertina and GUITAR. . . . .in fact, the concertina and guitar circles often intersected. . . .perhaps Regondi was the model. . . . . .in any event, both the duchess of wellington and lady john somerset were part of both circles, their magnet being Catherina Josepha Pelzer, who played both instruments. . . . .

 

still another noteable thing: the many instances of what are obviously husbands and wives both buying instruments. . . . .in other words: transactions for a Mr. and Mrs. with the same surname in very close chronological proximity. . . . .also mothers and daughters. . . . .and whole trios of Mr, Mrs, and Miss. . . . .

in addition: about 150 titled women. . . . .from duchesses down to plain own Lady. . . . . .finally, on average, women spent a bit more on their instruments than did men. . . . . .

 

one can also start to construct teacher/student relationships. . . . .as the ledgers will sometimes say something like: Case for Miss so-and-so. . . . . .or the main entry is for Mrs. X, with an annotation that mentiones Blagrove. . . .and that these do in fact point to student-teacher relationships can often be confirmed through the dedications of pieces by those guys to those women. . . . .and so on and so on. . . . .

 

at any rate, i hope to finish it up within the next two or three months. . . . . . .and then to submit it to the journal that i mentioned. . . . . .i would hope that they would permit it to be posted on concertina.com...................allan

[allan atlas]

FOLKS: i would add one more note to my reply of the other day. . . . . .it has to do with the equating of playing the concertina as one of the "accomplishments" of a well-bred young lady. . . . . . .

 

the following is from THE TIMES, 26 July 1860 (p. 4):

 

 

EDUCATION (superior) for YOUNG LADIES: inclusive terms 40 guineas a year. -- In an old-established finishing school, of high standing, conducted by a lady of talent, assisted by English and foreign governesses and eminent masters daily for all accomplishments [my italics). The instruction comprehends all the higher branches of English, modern languages, piano, singing, concertina [my italics], guitar, drawing, dancing, and calisthenics. The domestic arrangements are on a most liberal scale. The residence is a spacious mansion, delightfully situate, with extensive garden, and the locality not to be surpassed for salubrity. Address A.B. 9, Stanley-gardens, Kensignton-park.

 

 

there are any number of other such adverts.................Allan