Push pull change while on the same button

[latzenpratz]

Hi, just starting,

If I have a push pull change on the same button, do i push the button twice or just do the voicing with the bellows?

For example in the attached score, would you push the butten three times?

 

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited March 26 by latzenpratz

[Steve Schulteis]

They give a different effect, so it's a musical choice that's up to you. But practice releasing and re-pressing the button, because that's the less automatic action to perform and often the preferable sound.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

It looks, to me, that the numbering system on that sample has an error in the print as the A natural button can (on Anglo) be made by that same button used for G natural, with bellows simply  pulled out..whilst keeping your finger on the same button.🌝

[AndyNT]

Yes! Either is valid, most players do both at different times.

Releasing the button between each note can give a crisper staccato sound with clear space between the notes.

Holding the button down and just using the bellows reversal tends to give a muddier legato sound IMHO.

The sound difference is most noticeable when playing longer notes.

 

[Steve Schulteis]

47 minutes ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

It looks, to me, that the numbering system on that sample has an error in the print as the A natural button can (on Anglo) be made by that same button used for G natural, with bellows simply  pulled out..whilst keeping your finger on the same button.🌝

 

I'm not spotting the error you're talking about. As far as I can see, the tabs do show using the same button in opposite bellows directions for those notes. Can you be more specific?

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

What I mean is in that particular sample there appears to be no outward pull line above ( indicating) as I assume is on the other outward bellow produced notes.  That seems to indicate bellows out for that note.

The G notes are in bellows and the A note is outward bellows produced, on diagram it has three 5 numbers on the notes with no indication for bellows use or the difference to then produce the A.  ( to aid a beginner in playing).. I hope that does not sound too overly explained🌝🤔

[Steve Schulteis]

25 minutes ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

What I mean is in that particular sample there appears to be no outward pull line above

 

It's just above the staff, which is the convention for Coover tabs.

[latzenpratz]

There's only one bellow in a concertina, so one line should be enough?

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Regarding my noticing the tablature in sample shown ..( Steve)..

I see what you mean.. because I used for a long time a simple V shaped Indication above a  note to indicate bellows pull out ( which I found easier) but there's many ways of doing things 🌝 I thought the line was a bit confusing for learners.

[Roger Hare]

On 3/26/2024 at 5:09 PM, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

It looks, to me, that the numbering system on that sample has an error in the print as the A natural button can (on Anglo) be made by that same button used for G natural, with bellows simply  pulled out..whilst keeping your finger on the same button.🌝

Personally, I think that (for some of us) that's a highly relevant observation.

 

The text in 'Civil War Concertina' reads "Notes on the pull are shown by a button number with a line across the top". I presume the text is the same in other GC books?

 

In the illustration in the OP this is true for notes on the right hand - look at buttons 2 and 3 - some have a line over the top of the note (pull), some don't (push).

 

For the left-hand, pull notes are shown with a line on the far side of the staff. This is not 'across the top', it is 'the other side of the staff'. This is not as described in the text. This is confusing.

Edited March 28 by Roger Hare

[gcoover]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:18 AM, latzenpratz said:

If I have a push pull change on the same button, do i push the button twice or just do the voicing with the bellows?

For example in the attached score, would you push the butten three times?

 

Good advice from Steve and Andy - it's all about the musical effect you are looking for. As for me, I play those three notes in your example with the button held down and just snap the bellows to change direction since it's a Morris tune and the push-pull effect is part of what can give the tune some extra bounce.

 

If you feel like playing it smoother and more legato, then you could play that second G with the left hand 4a button (if you have a 30-button Anglo) and then everything would be on the pull. Lots of choices on the Anglo. 

 

As for those who are confused about the notation, the line above the notes (and the staff) is what indicates a pull. A longer line helps with phrasing and air control by indicating longer passages of either push or pull. There is no need to show a line for notes below the staff since it just adds to the clutter, but more importantly since you can't push and pull at the same time! 

 

Gary

 

[Clive Thorne]

I would say make your default to  lift the finger on a direction change. If you then want to selectively keep the button down for effect then it is a fairly easy thing to do.

If you make keeping it on during the reversal your default then taking it off on occasions is more difficult.

 

Personally I nearly always take the finger off, as I think that it sound snappier. If you really want the lagato effect then you're better off finding the reversal note on another button in the same direction (if it exists).

Edited April 4 by Clive Thorne

[Clive Thorne]

double post

Edited April 4 by Clive Thorne

[Mikefule]

You get a crisper sound, with cleaner attack at the start of the note if you take your finger off and put it back on between notes on the same button.

 

If you just hold the button down and reverse the bellows direction, you get no "daylight between the notes" and the sound is less crisp.

 

I recommend learning to do it by taking the finger off and putting it back on.  It takes a little more practice, and a little more discipline, but 9 times out of 10 it will sound cleaner and better.

 

Thing is, if you can do it the hard way, there is nothing to stop you choosing to do it the easy way to create a particular effect.  If you can only do it the easy way, then you have no choice.

[b13]

In such cases i don´t push the button 3 times. I stay on the button and push/pull. The correct timing only depends in the correct pushing/pulling. Thats how i do.

[Jesse Smith]

To complicate matters, I think I sometimes do it both ways in the same passage! Particular in jigs, if you have a triplet that can all be played on the same button, I will frequently lift the finger for the second note, in order to get a crisp and staccato first note to emphasize the beat. Then between the second and third notes, I'll just keep the finger held down because there's no need to emphasize the second note by playing it staccato. But clipping the first note of the triplet short is how you communicate the pulse of a jig.

 

I agree with those who suggest devoting some time to consciously playing the notes separated, since that is often how you'll want to do it, particularly in English/Morris tunes like this one, and because it's the more effortful way to do it. Then you can easily choose which way you want in a specific situation (and eventually, your fingers will just sort of unconsciously decide on their own).

[Michael Eskin]

"But clipping the first note of the triplet short is how you communicate the pulse of a jig. "

I have to disagree, generally to convey the pulse of a jig you lengthen the first note, shorten the second note with a bit of separation from the third notes, and the third note is more or less full value.  

We had a workshop with Mary Bergin here in San Diego a couple of weeks ago where she spent two hours teaching mostly new whistle players how to play jigs with the proper articulation, timing, and swing, so this isn't just my opinion on the matter, this is exactly how she describes the jig rhythm.

Edited July 23 by Michael Eskin

[Jesse Smith]

21 hours ago, Michael Eskin said:

"But clipping the first note of the triplet short is how you communicate the pulse of a jig. "

I have to disagree, generally to convey the pulse of a jig you lengthen the first note, shorten the second note with a bit of separation from the third notes, and the third note is more or less full value.

 

I should probably have specified, in traditional English dance music. I agree that Irish and other idioms may work differently.