Trying to learn how to write music for the Concertina

[JLAB9]

19 minutes ago, arti said:

This may be a waste of time:

I think I posted and deleted this suggestion and some examples:

 

Go to Concertina.com

 

You are setting yourself an impossible task as you know nothing about the instrument and the knowledge generously  offered here is likely to be confusing rather than informative. 

While I appreciate the concern, I'd like to disagree. I'd also like caution on imperatives. 

 

While it may appear that I know nothing about the instrument, I can assure you that is not the case. I did my research before joining this forum, and a lot of it is coming through. My original query has already been more than answered, so now any more information I am given is just a bonus. 

 

I do understand the three main types of Concertina and the differences between them. Most of what I am being taught here is what players of particular Concertinas typically play, and how they choose to learn. This is something I could not simply 'Google', nor could I learn this through playing the instrument. I do think that this method is the best. 

 

The knowledge people have given me has been almost entirely informative, and I do not feel confused by this at all. This ain't my first rodeo. I had a much tougher time learning how brass instruments work. The concertina feels like a different similar, since I already play the accordion. 

 

Again, please kindly consider your use of imperatives. 

[arti]

Please replace 'may' by 'will'  in my post.

Test question:

Why is a Salvation Army Anglo generally in Ab/Eb when  hymn singing was usually in Bb  (brass)?

I wish you the very best (Imperative - sorry - replace with 'quite a lot') of luck with your project

Edited December 5, 2023 by arti

[Little John]

6 hours ago, JLAB9 said:

I think we mean the same thing, if I'm not mistaken.

 

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken.

 

6 hours ago, JLAB9 said:

That the English and Anglo have similar ranges ...

 

A treble English and a C/G anglo have similar usable ranges. The lowest note on an English is G3 and it is fully chromatic down to that note. The anglo goes lower to C3, but with some notes missing below G3.

 

6 hours ago, JLAB9 said:

... and have some amount of degeneracy towards the centre of their ranges, ...

 

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this!

 

6 hours ago, JLAB9 said:

... while the Duet has a larger range that extends further into a normal Bass Clef range, ...

 

Not really. A duet of similar size to the two I mentioned above will go no lower than C3. [A Crane duet will be chromatic down to that, a Hayden duet will have a couple a accidentals missing, while a Maccann duet will not go quite as low and will have gaps.]

 

Alex points out that the English and anglo exist in deeper versions. There are English concertinas going down to C3, G2, F2, C2 and G1 for example; whilst baritone and bass anglos go down to C2 and C1 (but with gaps). Big (and very big) duets might go down to G2 or C2. But all these instruments are relatively rare. Unless you know someone who owns one of these instruments and is happy to collaborate with you on the composition, you would be well advised to stick to the range of a treble English.

 

 

 

 

 

[David Barnert]

3 hours ago, arti said:

Why is a Salvation Army Anglo generally in Ab/Eb when  hymn singing was usually in Bb?

 

I guess it’s like playing so many D major tunes on a C/G.

[arti]

 

 

Quote:

 

              INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE SALVATION ARMY CONCERTINA

The main key of the SA Concertina is Ab Concert Pitch, that being the key in which most of our tunes are sung. But as this key is the same as Bb on the Cornet, and seeing that our concertinas are mostly played with brass bands, we call it the Bb key, although it is really Ab Concert Pitch.

( Source: Intro from the SA Tutor by "HHB" this being the not particularly favourite son of the General )

 

Who said concertinas were easy?

Edited December 5, 2023 by arti
citation

[McCarthy]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:08 AM, JLAB9 said:

I'd definitely be interested in the sheet music for Echo at the very least, but what you're suggesting sounds a little like it could be considered light piracy. If it's an official book you purchased from them or their label, and you had no part in its creation, you potentially have no right to share it. A bit like how you can't buy sheet music online and simply repost it to a site like Musescore for others to use for free. While technically possible, it isn't exactly moral, especially with a smaller artist. 

 

If you're allowed to share it then yes I'd be interested in seeing Echo, but if it's legally grey then I'd rather not. 

 

 

I understand your concern, it hadn't fully occured to me. I did infact purchase it from them directly on bandcamp so I do not believe I'm at liberty to send you directly a copy of the song right out of the tunebook. Honestly, I'm not sure the legality of sharing the sheet music directly but I can provide you some information on the song. Echo by Talisk is based on a reel; it's called "Aye Right". It's in the key signature of E major with 4 sharps but there's not a single D# in the whole song.

 

It can't be that proprietary as the the link on the Session is here for this reel with the sheet music: https://thesession.org/tunes/16212

 

It's the 3rd tune down uploaded by pbsinclair42 3 years ago. 

 

There's also an ABC format for the song on The Session:

X: 3
T: Aye Right
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Emaj
fe|g3f gc c/c/c|Bc c/c/c ecfc|g3f gc c/c/c|Bcef gagf|
g3f gc c/c/c|Bc c/c/c ecfc|ec c/c/c acec|Bcef e2:|
|:fe|gage Bcec|Bege bege|gage Bcec|Bege fece|
gage Bcec|Bege bege|bege aege|fefg e2:|
|:fe|gebe Bece|Bece Bece|gebe Bece|Bege fece|
gebe Bece|Bece Bece|be e/e/e aege|fefg e2:|

 

You can use Michael Eskin's wonderful ABC tool with it: https://michaeleskin.com/abctools/abctools.html

 

One last thing to know, it's a fairly simple chord progression for the song but it's not particuarly easy on the anglo. The only chords in the whole song are: C#m7, B(add4), A(add9), G#m(b6), E5, A(sus2). 

 

Hope somebody get's some use out of this as I know the song Echo appears to be particuarly loved by a lot of folks but it can be difficult to pinpoint the notes if you don't play or listen well to music by ear. 

 

[Roger Hare]

9 hours ago, McCarthy said:

...One last thing to know, it's a fairly simple chord progression for the song but it's not particuarly easy on the anglo. The only chords in the whole song are: C#m7, B(add4), A(add9), G#m(b6), E5, A(sus2)...

Interesting. I tried my usual trick of using the automagic chord generation feature in ABCMus, and it came up with this:Any comment on the suitability of those chords? I'm never really sure whether this feature of ABCMus is any good...

 

Later edit: And the automagic chord generation facility in ABCExplorer produces a completely different set of chords. Sigh...

 

AyeRight.abc

AyeRight.mid

Edited December 6, 2023 by Roger Hare

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I believe that the huge and varied views on playing instruments, ways of holding them, chords used, music played, will swallow up a composer in the richness and myriad possibilities of free reed instruments.

So in a way there is no one way of playing or writing them; not one only rule for it, instead a generous amount of potential, in playing and writing for them.

Because they came about inbetween the development of  other orchestral instruments, they hover around on the world's between accepted standard repertoire, and also for the people in traditional music( which also influenced classical composers later on).

Seen as solo instruments in their own right they can equal violins, clarinets, and everything else available. With added advantage of being very portable to use and carry around too.

So, writing for concertina free reed ..write the ideas down freely, and consider as a genial purveyor of musical sound, regardless.🌝🌝

[Kathryn Wheeler]

Hooray for non conventional things with no fixed rules - do whatever you feel like with them! 

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Footnote here [ I mentioned before]  - Elgar's early life with Elgar Brothers music shop, and his memory of their dog rushing into the shop and knocking over a pile of 'Concertinas' and what a noise they made as they crashed to the floor!! I think this was recalled to his friend WH Reed violinist and his confidant [ if I remember correctly].. So there is a classical composer musician with awareness of the free reed popularity at the time [ probably that's all he thought of them who knows?.. Certainly Vaughan Willians must have been [ he was friends with Cecil Sharp of folk song society]!

 

[McCarthy]

16 hours ago, Roger Hare said:

Interesting. I tried my usual trick of using the automagic chord generation feature in ABCMus, and it came up with this:Any comment on the suitability of those chords? I'm never really sure whether this feature of ABCMus is any good...

 

Later edit: And the automagic chord generation facility in ABCExplorer produces a completely different set of chords. Sigh...

 

AyeRight.abc 693 B · 0 downloads

AyeRight.mid 14.5 kB · 0 downloads

Roger,

 

While some of that looks close, there's quite a difference between what's shown in the tunebook chord progression wise and your post. There's more chords than on my version and there's less variation at the end of the song where it's just alternating E and C#m chords in your version. Also there are no F#m in the song from the tunebook. 

 

One thing to note, my version of it does not have the little pre-emptive 2 note phrase F# E before the G# of each section. I'm sure that makes transitions between sections in the song sound nicer. I'm not counting this as a bar in my list below when I'm referencing where chords land. 

 

For the first two lines of the song, the chord only appears on the first and the last bar of the line. The first two lines chord progression C#m, B, A, B. In that order.

 

For the 3rd line it then starts off a pattern of a chord every 1st and the 3rd bar of each line. For the 3rd and 4th line, the chord progression is A, B, C#m, G#m in that order.

 

For the 5th and and 6th lines, the same pattern is followed of a chord every 1st and 3rd bar except for the ending of the 6th line the last bar of the song has a chord (a B chord) on the last G# note melody wise of the song. Including that final chord, the chord progression for the 5th and 6th lines are E, A, C#m, A, B, in that order. 

 

Please note that all of these chords I've detailed here include various additions/subsitutions/7ths as mentioned in my original post as I wrote them. I'll mention that I believe the chords are actually more suited to the guitar rather than concertina what with all the add/sus/7 but I'm sure its more than do-able to include it in with the melody. I just worry myself about if the chord bellow direction lines up with the note I'm playing in the melody if I lack a reversal. 

 

If you or anyone records a version of the song, please send me it if you would! I'd like to compare notes and chat, playing with only 3 sharps isn't all that complicated on a 30 button C/G but it does require even more coordination, especially when the playing gets faster. It would be cool to hear this song on a english concertina.

 

All I'll say is listening to a player that talented and trying to play a song from their repertoire is a humbling experience. I doubt I'll ever get it right. It's not the same as having the violin and guitar in the background as well. Obviously the song Echo is based off this sheet music but I'm not sure how to phrase and repeat the lines/bars to replicate anything super close to what they're playing. There's parts that are obviously recognizable but as a whole it's hard to hear it in your head while you're practicing it solo.

[Roger Hare]

6 hours ago, McCarthy said:

...One thing to note, my version of it does not have the little pre-emptive 2 note phrase F# E before the G# of each section. I'm sure that makes transitions between sections in the song sound nicer. I'm not counting this as a bar in my list below when I'm referencing where chords land, etc... (my emphasis)

 

Thank you. That's exactly the sort of critique of these automatic chord generators (ACG) I've been looking for - I don't have the depth of knowledge to be able to reliably create chord sequences myself, so I'm 'stuck' with the ACGs, and I'm sometimes a little suspicious of what I'm hearing when a tune with 'added chords' is played back. Mostly, it sounds OK(-ish), but sometimes it's clearly 'wonky' in some way.

 

One point I don't understand is the comment I've quoted above.

 

I used the ABC code which you posted as the basis for the processing I did. Unless I'm missing something, that ABC code does include an F# an E and a G# ('fe|g' or 'fe|g3') at the start of each section. The image of the score which you posted also shows the same features. I worked with what I had. If you used a different score then (presumably), direct comparisons are not necessarily valid?

 

Or, have I completely missed the point...?

 

Apologies if this 'side-bar' is seen by some as 'thread drift' (title:Trying to learn how to write music for the Concertina)...

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Roger Hare

[McCarthy]

5 hours ago, Roger Hare said:

 

Thank you. That's exactly the sort of critique of these automatic chord generators (ACG) I've been looking for - I don't have the depth of knowledge to be able to reliably create chord sequences myself, so I'm 'stuck' with the ACGs, and I'm sometimes a little suspicious of what I'm hearing when a tune with 'added chords' is played back. Mostly, it sounds OK(-ish), but sometimes it's clearly 'wonky' in some way.

 

One point I don't understand is the comment I've quoted above.

 

I used the ABC code which you posted as the basis for the processing I did. Unless I'm missing something, that ABC code does include an F# an E and a G# ('fe|g' or 'fe|g3') at the start of each section. The image of the score which you posted also shows the same features. I worked with what I had. If you used a different score then (presumably), direct comparisons are not necessarily valid?

 

Or, have I completely missed the point...?

 

Apologies if this 'side-bar' is seen by some as 'thread drift' (title:Trying to learn how to write music for the Concertina)...

 

 

Roger, glad to hear the information provided was useful. I can see how a auto chord generator would be fairly accurate but still have some inconsistencies.

 

All I meant by the pre-emptive 2 note upbeat not being there is that it is not included in the Talisk tubebook melody for this song. Each part or section of the song starts off on that G#, just doesn't include the F# E leading into it. But it is included in the Session link and ABC notation for the song provided. It doesn't really change the song much it just helps with transitions. I just wanted to include that point to help clarify where the chords land relative to the bars. 

[JLAB9]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:52 PM, Theo said:

Classical music is also possible on the anglo.

 

https://livestream.com/uol/final-recitals-17/videos/157705262 from about 5:30

That is brilliant! And funnily enough, the person playing looks a little like I used to. 

[David Barnert]

4 hours ago, JLAB9 said:

the person playing...

 

That’s @cohen (Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne).

[Roger Hare]

7 hours ago, McCarthy said:

Roger, glad to hear the information provided was useful. I can see how a auto chord generator would be fairly accurate but still have some inconsistencies.

 

All I meant by the pre-emptive 2 note upbeat not being there is that it is not included in the Talisk tubebook melody for this song. Each part or section of the song starts off on that G#, just doesn't include the F# E leading into it. But it is included in the Session link and ABC notation for the song provided. It doesn't really change the song much it just helps with transitions. I just wanted to include that point to help clarify where the chords land relative to the bars. 

Thank you for that clarification! I suspected that what you have said might be the case...

 

These chord generators are a mixed blessing - they are great for a numptie like me who can't reliably create legitimate chord sequences, but they do sometimes produce what are clearly slightly wacky results. They can be quite useful for detecting (and then correcting) slightly off-colour ABC code - an under-/over-full bar, or incorrectly coded triplet will often sound distinctly weird when played back with added accompaniment chords - however awful the chords may be in themselves...

 

The generators are not well-documented - using them is a bit like cutting a cake with a blunt knife in an unlit cellar, while blindfolded and wearing boxing gloves... 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Roger Hare

[Jody Kruskal]

Interesting drift, but back to OPs question of using concertina for "classical" written orchestral music.

 

I am a working composer in a number of genres and a professional Anglo player and teacher. My suggestion is to write for the English concertina and think of it as a violin playing mostly single line with only occasional double stops or chords.

 

My reasons...

 

Most Anglo players do not sight read standard notation. (right?)

Many English players do. (right?)

English has a long history of "classical" play from written notation. (right?)

Anglo is more of a folk instrument, learned by touch and ear. (right?)

 

English has an almost one to one correlation between the buttons and the pitch produced. This simplifies things for both  the player and the composer.

 

Anglo has a bewildering number of different buttons that could be used for any one pitch and an even greater number of combinations for any phrase. This makes the Anglo more of a puzzle than the comparatively straightforward English.

 

English can play in a greater number of keys than the Anglo, so any modulation or unusual keys you employ will have a greater likelihood of playability. The same is true for chromatic writing. The Anglo is at its core a diatonic instrument.

 

I wish you success with your project. 

[Jody Kruskal]

Oh yes, I did some recordings of concertina players I admire playing a variety of systems. Could be useful listening.

http://jodykruskal.com/player_profiles.html

 

Also, I was listening to an LP of the master panpiper Zamfir playing baroque concertos. Impressive! I thought of this thread.