Assistance needed with G/D Anglo Button Layout

[McCarthy]

Kind folks of Cnet,

 

I need some assistance in deciding on a button layout for a concertina that I plan on having made for me. The concertina I'm after is a G/D bass anglo and I've been in contact with Mr. Andrew Norman about it. I'd like to add on some additional buttons to the layout and need some help deciding what is fitting. I am a C/G anglo player with both a Clover and a Lachenal Baritone that I very much adore and therefor a lot of my opinions on anglo layout adjustments are centered around the key of C/G. I'm unsure of what additional notes/reversals make sense on a G/D and figured this would be the place to inquire on my questions. I have included a picture in my post that is the layout of a G/D bass anglo to assist in conversation. 

 

For the folks who are proficient in G/D anglo and have pondered the thought of 30 buttons and more; what additional notes/buttons would be beneficial?

 

From our conversations, I have been informed that to stay true the 7" bass that he offers, he can add on 1 extra low button and possibly 3 other buttons on the left hand side. Plenty of room to add in more notes on the right hand side.

 

One thing that has always bothered me about the C/G anglo is the fact that it goes down to a C3 with a E3 and F3 inbetween the G3 but there is no D3 and no F#3. That low C3 has always felt out of place although its fantastic for harmonic accompaniment. In the case of a bass G/D, the lowest note the concertina goes down to is a G1. There's a B1 and C2 inbetween the D2 but no A1. What are y'alls thoughts on adding in another button to the left of the G1/D2 on the G row. I would want the A1 on the pull and the push I am unsure of, potentially a bellow reversal for the C2? Perhaps a C#2 so I could have full availability to play G major and D major all the way up from the lowest note? Maybe this is an unreaslistic concept? I originally thought I wanted a G#1 and a Bb1 as well to give me full chromatic range but that's not what the anglos about and they can't all be fit within the 7" limit. 

 

I have a 48 button crane duet as well that I haven't truly sat down and given it as much of a go as I originally thought I would. Anglo has become a staple for me and I'm mainly interested in following down that road with all this in mind. Probably time to finance my anglo obsession and sell off my english and duet to those who'd appreciate them more.

 

What is the perception on the drone key and should I request one? I get the sense that it's normal for G to be the drone on a G/D and C to be drone on a C/G.

 

Furthermore, studying the attached keyboard, I have some thoughts on notes that would seemingly be useful as a bellow reversal and they are as follows:

• An additional G2 on the pull (this would be a G3 on standard G/D) -> LHS
• An additional F2 on the push (this would be a F3 on standard G/D) -> LHS
• An additional C3 on the push (this would be a C4 on standard G/D) -> LHS
• An additional B2 on the pull (this would be a B3 on standard G/D) -> LHS
• An additional C#3 on the push (this would be a C#4 on standard G/D) -> RHS
• An additional F3 on the push (this would be a F4 on standard G/D) -> RHS
• An additional C4 on the push (this would be a C5 on standard G/D) -> RHS
• An additional C#4 on the push (this would be a C#5 on standard G/D) -> RHS

 

How about additional directions for Bbs or G#s? I occassionaly play tunes in F major or A major that require these. D#/Ebs? I have one tune I know in Eb major. Though an accidental in one direction isn't too bad until you end up with 2-3 notes out of a scale in only one direction due to the nature of an anglo; in which case bellow management is just all the more important. I think a fair take on this whole thread is to stop being so ambitious and to play the anglo within the keys that it's built around with a few small exceptions. 

 

I did inquire about the idea of a double bass C/G going all the way down to C1 but this is a fairly unique concept with only a few examples being shown and the conversation between myself and Mr.Norman made me realize that to accomplish that the anglo would have to be close to 11" across which sounds like too big of an instrument to be ergonomically friendly. A bass G/D anglo while a rare idea; is a tried and well executed instrument when made in the right hands and I think it's more in line with what I'm after. 

 

I'm starting to realize the more that I ponder these questions that less is more; I'm inspired to work more around the convention of the anglo the more I force myself to find button patterns and songs that work within the confines of standard button layouts. I haven't spent a lot of time studying 38 button layouts for anglos though I'd warrant that I'd find a lot of these questions answered. I mainly play tunes in the keys of G and D major and my repertoire is all traditional irish songs mostly including polkas, reels, jigs and waltzes with the odd barndance/slide/strathspey, etc. Are the extra buttons beyond the conventional 30 even worth the extra weight and encumberance they likely will add?

 

In terms of button locations, is it smart to extend out the keyboard to have a few rows of 6 or 7 buttons or does it make sense to add in additional buttons below the bottom row in the center? I've seen both options used when looking at button layouts and I'm unsure what feels more natural. If I see them added on the rows, generally its on the side of the button layout closest to the player when held in position on one's knee. Meaning closest to the top side of the bellows. Adding further buttons to the outside of the bottom left hand side rows may not feel positioned correctly as it can already be difficult at times to bring the pinky finger that far down. 

 

 

Thank you for any insight on the subject to be added and I'm looking forward to exploring this idea further so that I can make my mind up and put an order in.

 

Happy playing!

Hans McCarthy

[Steve Schulteis]

All notes in this post are specified relative to the bass layout in your diagram, i.e. one octave lower than a normal G/D.

 

For straight melody playing, I'm pretty satisfied with a standard 30-button G/D. So I'm coming at this from the perspective of playing in the harmonic style. I'm also not personally interested in picking up an Anglo with more than 30 buttons, so this is a collection of limitations I've noticed rather than direct experience with extra buttons.

 

The options that I most often find myself missing:

• RHS Pull A4 - This one note forces a bellows change SO often and limits harmony options too (can't play it with a C or C#, grr). Most of the surrounding notes already have reversals.
• LHS A1 - On the pull to allow beefier A chords. Useful in all of the keys you're likely to play in on a G/D. If you only get one extra low note, this is the one. I think some folks (Jody Kruskal?) have actually swapped out one of the notes in the top row to get this.
• LHS Pull G2 and B2 - I often wish for some kind of G chord on the pull. I feel like these come up for other reasons too, but I don't recall specifics at the moment.

I tend to neglect the high end of the right hand. Part of that is the lack of reversals, which limits harmony options. I'm not sure if I would actually set my arrangements higher if I had those reversals, but maybe there's something there.

I wouldn't be too concerned about playing a full G or D scale from the lowest note. Those low notes are for harmony only in my mind, and that doesn't strictly require a continuous scale. That said, it would be nice to allow some extra bass runs in that harmony, which would probably mean C2 push and/or B1 pull. Having a C#2 would sometimes be nice as well. Those would all be a lower priority for me, though.

[malcolm clapp]

11 hours ago, McCarthy said:

Are the extra buttons beyond the conventional 30 even worth the extra weight and encumbrance they likely will add?

 

That would be the potential deal breaker for me. I've considered and tried larger and lower pitched models, but I find they have been too heavy and/or cumbersome for my style of playing and lacking the liveliness of a quality 30 key. But I suppose that it depends on the kind of music you envisage playing and what suits your purposes, but maybe it would be best if you could try out a few "heavyweights" before committing yourself to a yet unbuilt instrument....

 

(No criticism implied of Andrew Norman nor his concertinas).

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by malcolm clapp
Added final line

[d.elliott]

Unlike the English System you cannot get a single action Anglo. Many of the English System instruments are single action and have a very limited number of keys for both weight and space considerations. The other issue is valves, a single action instrument has none. The Anglo needs valves, it's whole concept demands fast acting valves. Unfortunately, valves are the biggest 'slow down' and issue when fitted to big reeds. On a big reeded Anglo they are a nightmare and from my (limited) experience they tend to play like, but are not as tasty as, a sticky plum pudding. The ones I have worked on are traditionally reeded, I assume (dangerously perhaps) that the Norman version would use accordion reeds? They might be differently valved. Physics, however, will be a constant.

[McCarthy]

All,

 

Thank you very much for the comments. 

 

Steve, I'll address yours first. Thank you for the wonderful insight. This has helped me tremendously. I certainly agree with you on the pull notes for everything mentioned. I didn't realize how important that RHS A4 pull would be and I intend on incorporating that into my layout. I use the analagous note on my C/G all the time and I'd surely miss not having a reversal of it on the pull. The A1 on the LHS as I had surmised seemed important to me personally and I wasn't really thinking about chords with it either exactly but it certainly will add another level into harmony that I think will be very useful. The additional Pull G2 and B2 on the LHS seemed missing to me as well so that is something I'm pleased to hear would be useful to the addition of the 30 button layout for a G/D player. I think it makes the most sense if you can call it that to go with a C2 on the push of the A1 since I have to choose some note in reversal for that. I've attached a button layout of what I am thinking but my right hand side is kind of all over the place and I think I'm starting to add buttons in simply for the convention of having them which is not the idea here. Every button needs to mean something and have utility. I agree there's not much point on having a full G or D scale that low in octave. What do you think of the placement of some of the notes and do you have any comments on what can be done away with? I think in particular all the additional G#s, D#s and Bbs on the RHS are overkill; I just wanted to put something together to stare at for a while. I like the placement of the A4 on the RHS I think it does well to provide A, C#, E chords. I'm worried about where the A1 is.

 

 

 

Malcolm,

 

Thank you for your comments. I can see why that additional encumberance and dare I say it, complexity is a turn off to many folks. There's such a trade off to that added on versatility when it comes to more weight and finger positioning. I don't think an instrument with more buttons and the same/similar dimensions as a 30 button can play as well, you lose something in the action and reed chambers/plates and responsiveness by fitting more in.  You are entirely right in it seems to have a bearing on what music one is after but I look at it more from how it sounds to my ears perspective. The higher pitch of a standard C/G can get a bit grating on my ears at times and I enjoy lower notes. My clover being a hybrid and my only normal C/G 30 button that works; perhaps I need to get a vintage 30 button C/G at some point to see how that jives with me. There are times the RHS of a standard C/G is a bit too much for my ears and I think my wife and cats would likely agree with me. What do you think about the idea of trying out a G/D before I get my bass? I'd like to have some experience with the standard 30 button G/D layout before it arrives so there's some familiarity. 

 

Personally what I enjoy the most when it comes to playing are two things, slow airs/waltzes with lot of harmony (which I'm not very proficient at yet) and playing reels/polkas entirely too fast for my skillset. Something about getting carried away with the music. Only one of those two really lends itself to a bigger and heavier instrument 

 

I completely agree with you on getting acclimated to a "heavyweight" before committing to an unbuilt instrument and I hope that I'm not super off base here. I have a 30 button lachenal baritone in C/G that I adore and I find myself playing it more than my standard C/G. It's 7.5" across the flats which actually is bigger than the 7" hybrid G/D bass of A.C. Norman. When we start adding on additional buttons though, I'm sure the weight goes straight up. I've never had the opportunity to weigh my baritone but I reckon it's over double the weight of my clover. I'd put it at close to 5 lbs. It's a burden at times to play from the size and weight aspect but as I've practiced with it I find I have a proclivity towards it. I don't have much of an issue with playing it for several hours at a time now so I'd hope that it has provided me some experience with squeezing a heavier box that lends itself towards my ideal here. 

 

David,

 

I feel very privilaged to have you comment on a thread of mine. The idea of a single action concertina had never occured to me until I looked further into bass concertinas and realized exactly what you said; a lot of early english basses seem to have the single action and as low as 29 keys on it for the sake of real-estate and weight on the reed pan and instrument. It never occured to me that you wouldn't need valves on a single action instrument, however, that's a strange thought to me but I suppose it makes total sense.

 

The concept of lower pitched baritone/anglo concertinas is really quite difficult to pull off from what I gather and it always astounds me that the baritone that I currently own can play as well and responsive as it does on the lower end of the LHS. I get the sense that accordion/hybrid reeded concertinas often can have a less finicky response when it comes to fast acting notes. Perhaps its the standardization of having set reed length sizes for each octave at the lower end with the additional drop in frequency being from weighted tips on the reeds and profile. The Norman bass concertina is a hybrid accordion reeded instrument and I'm always astounded listening to his youtube video of it at how well it comes off on responsiveness. One of his comments on the video says his concertinas are designed around italian reeds where there are two reeds per reedplate so I'm not sure how that weighs into said conversation here specifically around bass anglos. Here's the video that I mentioned to show the standard version of what I'm after. I dont' know how the valves are set up on Norman concertinas. Maybe someone has some insight on that?

 

What I can say with certainty is that I am not after a concertina with the claggyness of a sticky plum pudding. The balance in finding an instrument that low in tone while still maintaining responsiveness is key. They can never be as responsive as a 30 button in a higher octave though. One thing I think I can say is that if I request too many buttons on said bass anglo and stick with the 7" convention, there will be a comprimise somewhere. Andrew has commented to me that if he adds in a lower note with a larger reedplate, it means to fit that extra larger plate in, other notes may have to have a slightly smaller reed plate. Unsure of how that plays into the conversation as well but I can imagine having too ambitious of a design here would comprimise the playability of the original layout which is not worth it in my opinion. 

 

 

 

Really looking forward to more comments and insight; apologies if this topic has been talked to death before. I really am enjoying the conversations here. 

 

Thank you everyone!

[Steve Schulteis]

46 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

I think it makes the most sense if you can call it that to go with a C2 on the push of the A1 since I have to choose some note in reversal for that.

 

That makes sense to me. I don't have a better suggestion.

 

46 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

What do you think of the placement of some of the notes and do you have any comments on what can be done away with?

 

I agree that the A1/C2 button might be a little out of the way, but I'm not sure I'm the best person to evaluate - I don't have any experience with reaching extra buttons. Perhaps some other folks will give guidance. I think it makes sense to keep chord shapes in mind, especially on the left hand. I'd also take a look at existing C/G layouts with extra buttons, transpose them down, and see where they put things.

 

What I'd do away with is a tricky question. Like I said, I'm sticking to a 30-button myself, so technically the answer is "everything else". How useful the buttons beyond what I've suggested will be isn't something I have much of a perspective on at the moment.

 

46 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

What do you think about the idea of trying out a G/D before I get my bass?

 

I think if you haven't already tried a standard G/D and you have the opportunity, you should definitely do so before ordering a bass.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Steve Schulteis

[Peter Laban]

Have you looked at what Cormac Begley uses? I remember he had some nifty customisation although I can't remember exactly what it was.

 

 

 

[McCarthy]

Steve,

 

I doubt I'll have any luck trying out a G/D anglo where I am located anytime soon without purchasing one but I'm seriously starting to think about doing so and holding onto the idea of the bass for some time while I acquaint myself with a different key layout. I'm really interested in getting some opinions on anyone that's started out with a C/G or G/D and made the swap from one to the other and how that works out. I feel like I've read somewhere on here that playing in the G row on a G/D is a lot like playing on the C row in C/G (with the F#) but the D row on a G/D and the G row on a C/G are two totally different things. Maybe I've butchered that thought. Personally I like to alternate between rows to suit my button arrangement but I feel that is simply anglo 101, you need to be proficient in both rows of keys so you can choose bellow reversals where necessary to avoid cross fingerings, etc. In my mind, I feel like the transition wouldn't be too hard in the sense that comparing C/G and G/D, the intervals between the notes remaining the same keeps it logical.

 

Your idea of taking a C/G layout with more than 30 buttons and transposing it down to G/D to see where the alternate bellow reverals and notes fall intriques me. I've had that occur to me before but realized I might confuse myself further. I get the sense maybe I'm putting too much thought into this idea and I ought to simply stick with convention. If it works well for other people then it should work well for me. I mainly play melodies for the moment with the occassional harmonic which mainly for me just consists of diads of the same notes an octave apart. I certainly enjoy my 30 button C/Gs. When I first got my original 30 button I was told by the only fellow I've met in person who plays concertina that I should have bought a 20 button instead. I would surely not have the range of music I do currently with my instruments if I had any less buttons, I use them all with very few exceptions. 

 

Peter,

 

Thank you very much for the post. Cormac Begley, as many would say I'm sure, is an inspiration. For more than just myself. I listen to all his music frequently. It had occured to me to look more closely at his videos rather than listen to them to see what could be learned. If I'm not mistaken, Cormac's bass that he plays is a G/D Dipper. I'm fairly certain looking at his videos that the LHS of his instrument has no additional buttons. The RHS can often be harder to get a good look at for some reason but I've found some things in it, he's got 6 buttons on the top row of the RHS and if I'm not mistaken maybe some additional buttons on the middle or bottom row as well. They're on the side of the instrument that's closest to the top of the bellows when played on one's leg, which is standard placement I think. It'd be foolish for me to assume that just because the LHS only has 3 rows of 5 buttons that it's exactly the same as the layout I've suggested above. As mentioned already by Steve, Jody Kruskal has/had a button arrangement that alters the top LHS of the instrument, potentially adding another A or as I've also seen, changing out the low F pull for a G# to provide a bellow reversal for the low G# on the top row middle button on a standard G/D layout. Hard to say what Cormac has on his bass G/D. Maybe I should send him an e-mail and find out? Never really occured to me to reach out!

 

It's occured to me to post an example of a layout with additional buttons and I find that it's fairly different than the 38 button layout that I've come up with. It brings up another interesting point, the difference between Jeffries and Wheatstone layouts for the G/D. I personally play Wheatstone on the C/G and I think maybe it's just a matter of preference. But obviously there's some logic behind either one based on the music one's after.

 

 

Thank you!

[Steve Schulteis]

4 hours ago, McCarthy said:

I'm really interested in getting some opinions on anyone that's started out with a C/G or G/D and made the swap from one to the other and how that works out.

 

Well, I started on a C/G. When I switched, I fully committed to the G/D, and I can't read music for the C/G anymore. Instead I treat it as a transposing instrument. I think this is the approach of most Anglo players, except that more sensible folk read music for the C/G and treat other tunings as transposing. But I don't regret my choice, and it suits my own purposes. The transition didn't take me long, and with intentional practice I was quickly reading more fluently for G/D than I did for C/G.

 

4 hours ago, McCarthy said:

I feel like I've read somewhere on here that playing in the G row on a G/D is a lot like playing on the C row in C/G (with the F#) but the D row on a G/D and the G row on a C/G are two totally different things.

 

I'm not sure why there would be a significant difference. I haven't noticed any. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

[Peter Laban]

 

11 hours ago, McCarthy said:

 Hard to say what Cormac has on his bass G/D. Maybe I should send him an e-mail and find out? Never really occured to me to reach out!

 

 

 

It wouldn't  harm to find out. I have heard him explain it at some point but as I said I don't fully remember the details. I don't think it's a matter of extra notes but there were levers that could instantly switch the thing from bisonoric to uni sonoric, things for note bending etc. Some serious customisation anyway.

[d.elliott]

On the subject of compromises and stuffing in extra notes, plate sizes etc. The only way you can get a lower pitch from a smaller reed is by slowing the reed down. This is usually by adding more mass to the tip of the reed relative to the spring in the belly of the reed. From experience, this can make a reed slower to respond, and sometimes more 'breathy'. In stead of more, have you considered less keys, say a 26 key? I might suggest that 26 keys that works really well, is better than 36 keys where some notes are hardly ever used and those you need regularly are compromised, if only by a little. 

[hjcjones]

13 hours ago, McCarthy said:

I feel like I've read somewhere on here that playing in the G row on a G/D is a lot like playing on the C row in C/G (with the F#) but the D row on a G/D and the G row on a C/G are two totally different things. Maybe I've butchered that thought.

 

I was also puzzled by this.  All anglos share more or less the same keyboard layout (disregarding variations and customisations) in the sense that the relative intervals between the buttons are the same.  All that varies is the pitch. I can use the same fingering patterns on my C/G, G/D and F/C instruments and I will play the same tune, but in different keys.  Playing in the G row on a G/D is exactly like playing on the C row in C/G, and the D row is the same as the G row on a C/G

 

If you think of the keyboard in doh-re-mi terms they're identical, regardless of the pitch of the instrument. Of course you're starting from a different doh, but the fingerings are the same, they just sound in different keys.  This is why people get instruments in different pitches - a 30 button C/G can play in most keys, but if you play a lot in certain keys it's easier to get an instrument where those are the "home" keys.

 

What may have caused confusion is that if you want to play in the same key but on differently-pitched instruments then you will have to use different fingerings.  Playing in D on a G/D uses the same fingerings as playing in G on a C/G, rather than the fingerings you would use to play in D on a C/G.  So if you already play a tune in D on a C/G you will have to relearn it to play it in D on a D/G.

 

If you play from music then you will have to learn to associate the named notes with different buttons.  However many (if not most) anglo players simply treat them as transposing instruments.  I mostly think in C/G terms regardless of which instrument I'm using and what key the music is actually being played.  I play by ear, but with modern music software it's a simple matter to transpose a tune into a familiar key for reading purposes.

Edited October 2, 2023 by hjcjones
Edited to clarify a point

[wunks]

1 hour ago, hjcjones said:

 

 

If you think of the keyboard in doh-re-mi terms they're identical, regardless of the pitch of the instrument. Of course you're starting from a different doh, but the fingerings are the same, they just sound in different keys.  This is why people get instruments in different pitches - a 30 button C/G can play in most keys, but if you play a lot in certain keys it's easier to get an instrument where those are the "home" keys.

 

 

Yah!

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I do not worry too much over key my instrument [ 30 key Anglo] is in - as I have collected a huge amount of music in all sorts of [sometimes exotic] key as it is. Unless one is using just one row on its own - I feel myself that this can sometimes become too much an issue or concern; go ahead and try playing in whatever key you can I say.

[david fabre]

Hello Hans & all

 

You might be interested to have a look at the layout of my Levitina.

It's a very special instrument, built by Emanuel Pariselle in 2013, a hybrid anglo/bandoneon/accordion, with two sets of reeds tuned one octave apart.

It can be switched to baritone, treble of both !

This one is C/G and my numbering of octave is different fro yours, but I thing you can easily figure out what it would be in G/D.

Emannuel managed to fit 37 buttons (with one little trick to stick with 36 reed sets : the duplicated G/A keys on the LHS are linked together!)

 

As you can see, On the LHS my choice had been to add bass notes, having an almost fully chromatic lower octave (only miss C#1 and Eb1), and reversal for higer notes. I have a pull D1 in the same place as your proposal (corresponds to A1 on G/D) and like it a lot !

 

On the RHS I have a number of reversals, with different solutions compared to your idea. 

 

Note also one originality in my layout : all the d#(eb) (corresponding to bb/a# on the G/D) are displaced from their original locations and replaced by other notes that I find much more useful at these locations. The pull E2 on the left (would be pull B1 for you) is especially useful at this location for chord playing ! On the right, the pull eb3 is replaced by a bidirectional c# (as done by some irish style players) and the higher one is replaced by a pull d4 (which is a bit similar to the Jeffries layout). I made similar modifications on all my other instruments and I'm very happy with this choice !

 

Something that I miss on this instrument and did not realize when ordering is some notes to complete the higher range  (my highest note is g4). I made these choices because on my 40 Wheatstone I never used higher notes but considering the baritone range I actually miss the lost a4,b4 and c5. you might also consider completing your higher range (g5 and possibly even higher).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[david fabre]

More on the levitina, and some demonstrations, in this thread

 

 

 

[david fabre]

 

I also have a G/D (not a bass), made by Edgley, with a similar choice to displace the a#/bb notes. See below. 

Note that since this one is a 30b, the lowest Bb was lost. There are a few times where I miss this lack of full chromaticity, but there are much more times where I'm happy to find a B in its place, for chord playing. 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by david fabre