Fingering (i.e. what fingers to use) on anglo concertinas

[Roger Hare]

6 hours ago, Kathryn Wheeler said:

It is lovely to develop your own way of relating to an instrument, yes.

 

I still like to write things down though, not only because I get asked for dots and people ask how particular bits are played but because it’s really nice for me to have - and if I forget some details in future I’ve got it there.

 

So if anyone else has any nifty ways of clearly showing finger choices without them getting confused with numbering for buttons that’d be interesting!

There is (or can be) a loose correspondence between button and finger numbering:

 

1 = button 1 ~= index finger;

2 = button 2 ~= middle finger;

3 = button 3 ~= ring finger;

4 = button 4 ~= little finger

 

it's not an exact/complete/constant link, but I find that it works reasonably well for a lot of the time. I've been doing it this way since ~2016. As it's symmetrical, this works for both Left and Right hand. Adding that extra 'finger' notation might make it awkward to read?...🙁

Edited September 4, 2023 by lachenal74693

[Notemaker]

14 hours ago, lachenal74693 said:

There is (or can be) a loose correspondence between button and finger numbering:

 

1 = button 1 ~= index finger;

2 = button 2 ~= middle finger;

3 = button 3 ~= ring finger;

4 = button 4 ~= little finger

 

it's not an exact/complete/constant link, but I find that it works reasonably well for a lot of the time. I've been doing it this way since ~2016. As it's symmetrical, this works for both Left and Right hand. Adding that extra 'finger' notation might make it awkward to read?...🙁

Correct!

Fingers are more of a feeling thing than, necessarily, a numbering thing. Because when I need to press a button with my index finger, I don't have to think ' finger No 1 go press key X', that is; there is no in-between thought process needed.

 

 

[Leah Velleman]

Bertram Levy, in his bandoneon-inspired book about fiddle tunes, uses this kind of intense system where roman numerals tell you which row, combinations like L13 tell you which hand and button, the letters C and A stand for, uh, push and pull in Spanish, and little bold numbers tell you which finger. Also, he numbers fingers like a piano player, so the index finger is 2, not 1.

 

 

I never really got my head around it, but I imagine if I ever did it would be useful. (That goes for the whole book, honestly.)

[Clive Thorne]

CORRECTION:

In an earlier post I said "Melodic Style". I meant "Harmonic style".

It's my age you know.

[Notemaker]

46 minutes ago, Leah Velleman said:

Bertram Levy, in his bandoneon-inspired book about fiddle tunes, uses this kind of intense system where roman numerals tell you which row, combinations like L13 tell you which hand and button, the letters C and A stand for, uh, push and pull in Spanish, and little bold numbers tell you which finger. Also, he numbers fingers like a piano player, so the index finger is 2, not 1.

 

 

I never really got my head around it, but I imagine if I ever did it would be useful. (That goes for the whole book, honestly.)

Fascinating!

 

Well on my 30 BTN Jeffries type Anglo, ignoring rows for now, there is only one 'hands' position option, left or right. That is top-most, or bottom-most because there are 5 buttons in each row, and I have but 4 fingers, the thumb being too inconvenient to use.

 

My system makes use of the properties of numbers to get rid of all that clutter, "RHS, LHS, P ( push ), D ( draw )" and so on.

 

I use but two numbers for each button, because there are 2 notes under it. I chose to start counting from zero, 0, because it is an even number.

 

Happily for me with just 15 buttons per side; of the numbers for any button, the first tells me which side - even numbers LHS, odd RHS - and which row to be on, 0=G,2=C,4=Accidentals ( are LHS ); while 1,3,5 same row names ( are RHS ); and the second ( number ) tells me bellows direction - even number indicate press, odd indicates draw. While of the options left, one of 0,2,4,6,8; if press, or 1,3,5,7,9 if draw, indicates the button 

 

So for example '08' is LHS press bellows on the top-most button of the 'G' row, sounding the note D.

 

After a while using this system I can nearly translate to it  from Garry Cover's tabs as I read a tab of a tune.

 

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

1 hour ago, Leah Velleman said:

Bertram Levy, in his bandoneon-inspired book about fiddle tunes, uses this kind of intense system where roman numerals tell you which row, combinations like L13 tell you which hand and button, the letters C and A stand for, uh, push and pull in Spanish, and little bold numbers tell you which finger. Also, he numbers fingers like a piano player, so the index finger is 2, not 1.

 

 

I never really got my head around it, but I imagine if I ever did it would be useful. (That goes for the whole book, honestly.)

Oooh what a carry on, that is for melodeon ( I have one of those accordion ones ) and maybe you can use numbering in a slightly different way. But concertina book I started on simply gave numbers 1 to 5 for each side .. the numbers above being for right hand, whilst numbers below stave, for right hand.

I think too much technical detail on page can be discouraging and inhibit learning process.

[Leah Velleman]

Nope, not melodeon! It's anglo concertina music, just with a tab system nobody else uses.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Leah Velleman

[Kathryn Wheeler]

3 hours ago, Leah Velleman said:

Bertram Levy, in his bandoneon-inspired book about fiddle tunes, uses this kind of intense system where roman numerals tell you which row, combinations like L13 tell you which hand and button, the letters C and A stand for, uh, push and pull in Spanish, and little bold numbers tell you which finger. Also, he numbers fingers like a piano player, so the index finger is 2, not 1.

 

 

I never really got my head around it, but I imagine if I ever did it would be useful. (That goes for the whole book, honestly.)

I did wonder whether to number fingers like a pianist or not - I reckoned not because I don’t use the thumbs except on the air button of course. But that said, i guess I have too much keyboard playing in my background because it just feels weird to call my middle finger 2!

[Leah Velleman]

Yeah, I'm also a former pianist and honestly, I have the same problem. I'd have thought relearning finger numbers would be easy (there's only four of them! they're still in the same order!) but it's just like you say — my brain does not like it. 

[Kathryn Wheeler]

What’s weird is that I’m ok with the index being 1 but, nope, the middle is rebelling at being 2 and the pinkie just has to be 5.  The ring finger is a bit confused 😆 

[Notemaker]

1 hour ago, Kathryn Wheeler said:

What’s weird is that I’m ok with the index being 1 but, nope, the middle is rebelling at being 2 and the pinkie just has to be 5.  The ring finger is a bit confused 😆 

I do get that you have internalized finger numbers from playing other things, indeed I too have a bit of that from studying Violin.

 

To make progress with them, I disregard entirely finger numbers when reading the Anglo Concertina TAB/s.

 

 

[Roger Hare]

5 hours ago, Kathryn Wheeler said:

...i guess I have too much keyboard playing in my background because it just feels weird to call my middle finger 2!

 

5 hours ago, Leah Velleman said:

Yeah, I'm also a former pianist and honestly, I have the same problem. I'd have thought relearning finger numbers would be easy (there's only four of them! they're still in the same order!) but it's just like you say — my brain does not like it. 

That's perfectly understandable. One of the main points about all this is that with a little care, folks can devise a system which suits them. It can be as simple (or as complicated!) as one wishes. I go for simplicity and minimalism.

 

It's not a 'one size fits all' operation, and it must be awkward trying to run with two similar, (but slightly different) numbering systems simultaneously. The medical profession uses the same system - but I don't want my left big toe amputated by a concertina-playing surgeon who's confused about whether (s)he's using the 'medical' system, or the 'ABT' (or whatever) system.

 

I think Michael Eskin's fingering generator will allow use of this modified numbering scheme. I haven't tried it because I already have the ABT button numbering stored by Michael's program, and I don't want to be forever re-doing this. It also would be a trivial (but tedious) modification to my own tabbing program. Again, I have no intention of actually doing this - I'm happy with what I've got, which is minimalist, compact, concise, 'correct' and comprehensible...

 

In this instance, the 'table' I posted earlier simply becomes:

 

2 = button 1 ~= index finger;

3 = button 2 ~= middle finger;

4 = button 3 ~= ring finger;

5 = button 4 ~= little finger

 

No worries! Button 5 is (probably) also accessed with the little finger (I didn't mention button 5 in my earlier post, in order to keep it simple).

_____________________

Thank you for the illustration of Bertram Levy's tablature - I've been looking for such an illustration for ages. I now know not to bother purchasing the book...

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by lachenal74693

[gcoover]

Might I add a caution about over-thinking the fingering issue?

 

Learning by tab (whichever one suits you best) is hard enough without trying to officially designate which finger goes where.

 

With the Anglo it's fairly self-evident.

 

And in the name of simplicity, it's probably best to try what comes naturally and works well, and if there's a tricky spot then try something else. There is no gospel way of playing, but yes, some fingerings work much better than others.

 

Once you learn the keyboard, you'll never think of "finger numbers".

Gary

Edited September 5, 2023 by gcoover

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I am known for barely holding my concertina in my own unusual method😊...whole hands inside the straps. ( What a rebel I am!,).. So it could even be possible to use the thumb to reach notes also..! Which I do not do as it is like being contortionist. 

[Kathryn Wheeler]

“Folks can devise a system that suits them”

 

Exactly! That’s what I’m doing

 

And it is only for tricky little passages where I need to remember what I’m doing because I’m using non obvious (to me) fingering.   I have come up with a way and it looks like it’s fine.

 

When I say non obvious I mean it feels really natural and right for that context. Bur when I examine what I did I realise that I need to make a note of it because I reckon I won’t remember if I haven’t practiced it in or haven’t played the piece for a while.  

 

Thanks for all your replies, especially to those of you that have shared what works for you.

 

My main point of posting was to just make sure there wasn’t this universally known way of doing it that I hadn’t come across because I write my own music.  And because someone else might suggest a nifty way.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Kathryn Wheeler
I thought of more

[Roger Hare]

3 hours ago, gcoover said:

Might I add a caution about over-thinking the fingering issue?

Or over-thinking anything...

 

In the last ~2-3 years (in another place), I've seen examples of way complicated/convoluted 'solutions' to problems with ABC code.

 

<not-music on>

Classic non-music example of over-thinking. A board game with flat (2-dimensional) pieces has an image on each side of the piece - total two images. For Westerners, there is thought to be some 'difficulty' learning these images (they are Chinese characters).

 

'Solution' to the problem: Make the pieces 3-dimensional and put an image on each face of the 3-d pieces - result four images per piece. Also put (up to) four images on the base of the new 3-d pieces, for a total of (up to) eight images, where previously, we only had two. This is perceived as making things simpler (it doesn't). Wonderful!

<not-music off>

 

It helps if 'tab' systems are 'self-documenting', and also embrace the Japanese concept of 'poke-yoke' which (sort of) means 'this is guaranteed to be operator-proof'...

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

It reminds me of all those fingering rules for piano playing often recommended. Years ago, my late Mother always told me tale of her been expected to go for piano lessons, even though she knew she had little facility for it ( she was a visual artist as her skill).. so she was out off by method. However she did remember her five finger technique, to a degree. But by admission had little interest in playing piano. She would have instead liked a flute, she always tdld me. Incidentally, she rarely attended her piano lessons, instead opting to buy an ice cream and before returning home!😊😊

[AndrewCollins]

41 minutes ago, Kathryn Wheeler said:

And it is only for tricky little passages where I need to remember what I’m doing because I’m using non obvious (to me) fingering.   I have come up with a way and it looks like it’s fine.

 

When I say non obvious I mean it feels really natural and right for that context. Bur when I examine what I did I realise that I need to make a note of it because I reckon I won’t remember if I haven’t practiced it in or haven’t played the piece for a while.  

 

It's the same for me.  If it's a piece I like then I'll play it lots and I'll memorise the unusual fingering, but if it's one I don't play much then those few extra characters in the score make all the difference when I next have to sight read it.