Frustration

[Dirge]

I wanted to use my reserve duet; it had got things jammed in a couple of reeds and instead of sorting it at the time I put it aside and hadn't played it for a bit. So I sat down and checked all the treble notes, took the end off, and fixed them, and screwed the endbolts carefully home. (it's an aeola so 8 screws, not 6).

 

I start to play and IMMEDIATELY another reed jams. Nothing. I curse, take the end off, fix it, screw the endbolts carefully home.

 

I start to play and IMMEDIATELY the adjacent note starts that metallic contact noise. I curse, take the end off, fix it, screw the endbolts carefully home...

 

 

Within 2 seconds it is back where it was, tinny and horrible.

 

I go to bed.

 

This morning I re-evaluate the problem and decide the reed is not secure in its slot; that it isn't the tongue mmoved as I thought; a paper shim, put the end back on, and it seems OK.

 

I'm not looking for advice on this one, just sharing the frustration of having to do 4 sessions of deep surgery (something I still find worrying) for about 2 minutes playing.

[catty]

Right; there's something to be said for low-technology instruments, like fiddles and pipes. Seems that concertinas are relatively sensitive, or vulnerable.

Edited June 2, 2010 by catty

[m3838]

Right; there's something to be said for low-technology instruments, like fiddles and pipes. Seems that concertinas are relatively sensitive, or vulnerable.

 

So I sit down for practice, pick my 12 sided Aeola and start playing. In several minutes it begins to develop slight metallic buzz.

Without thinking I pick up my another 12 sided Aeola and continue.

What a bummer, this one too, begins making very slight gurgling noise from the flaps.

Ah boy, I have to bend down to pick up my 8 sided Aeola extended treble and continue.

Within approximately 10 minutes one reed jamms.

I curse, take all three of them and throw into the dumpster. Pick up my Jackie and begin to play. It hisses, buzzes, gurgles, buttons stick, but it doesn't bother me. Then I wake up and think, was it a nightmare ?

[Alan Day]

I would like to suggest that you do not undertake concertina repair work.

I have taken the ends off many times,I consider it quite normal for repairing concertinas.

I did have one concertina that was buzzing and after many attempts to try and find the cause. I realised that the buzz only occurred when the bellows were nearly closed. It turned out that the reed was hitting the corner block which had been made too large. Sadly some concertinas have faults from new , but how pleasing it is to give a bit of verbal to the manufacturer even if he is no longer with us.

Al

[Dirge]

Right; there's something to be said for low-technology instruments, like fiddles and pipes. Seems that concertinas are relatively sensitive, or vulnerable.

 

I don't normal touch them for months on end, since I replaced the gauze to keep out sweater fluff. That's why 4 visits in one go was so irking. My experience is that when they are newly overhauled or have sat for decades they misbehave a bit, but once shaken down they need very little attention. I think the things are actually very tough and I bet a fiddle player spends more time tuning than I do on maintenance, so as far as I'm concerned there is absolutely nothing to be said for fiddles and pipes.

 

So I sit down for practice, pick my 12 sided Aeola and start playing. In several minutes it begins to develop slight metallic buzz.

Without thinking I pick up my another 12 sided Aeola and continue.

What a bummer, this one too, begins making very slight gurgling noise from the flaps.

Ah boy, I have to bend down to pick up my 8 sided Aeola extended treble and continue.

Within approximately 10 minutes one reed jamms.

I curse, take all three of them and throw into the dumpster. Pick up my Jackie and begin to play. It hisses, buzzes, gurgles, buttons stick, but it doesn't bother me. Then I wake up and think, was it a nightmare ?

Sorry, it wasn't supposed to be a 'Look at me I've got TWO aeolas' post...

[catty]

I think the things are actually very tough and I bet a fiddle player spends more time tuning than I do on maintenance, so as far as I'm concerned there is absolutely nothing to be said for fiddles and pipes..

...

 

Right--that's part of the low-tech bit. I suppose your concertinas are tough indeed...so long as they are not left alone and are played with some frequency, not exposed to any liquid (such as rain perhaps) or any pointy objects like auto keys or such...and neither pushed nor pulled without noting, nor to any excess at all...etc. The fiddle and pipe could withstand all of that...and wheeze, cough, hiss, sputter, buzz, gurgle and gasp not, nor sound tinny...unless of course one's playing impels it thusly.

 

Not to say that concertinas aren't great--probably because of their relatively sensitive (or at least vulnerable) mechanism. But, yeah...you'd rarely if ever have to open-up a fiddle or pipe to get its innards in order. Nay, I don't believe poo-pooing is deserved: for it is fiddles and pipes that will keep us happily playing music--even in less than ideal conditions--whilst awaiting on our free-reeds to straighten themselves out...or whatever it is they do.

Edited June 2, 2010 by catty

[Geoff Wooff]

I do not think that Concertina players really have much to complain about, regarding the continuous good service they recieve from their instruments. If you wish to experience "Frustration" then try playing the Hurdy Gurdy! A typical practice period goes like this;

It's 7 in the evening, work finnished, dinner finnished, there is one spare hour before the next interuption, "Yes time to practice my latest tune"..... Hurdy gurdy out of its case, start to tune it... so-so, one string has a bad sound, screeches/ whistles: grates... Baahhh, change the cotton?, maybe the Rosin needs to be renewed or has become sticky or I need to get all the old Rosin off the Wheel and start again... no its just the cotton, take off the worn out cotton and replace, hmmm now that string plays some notes in tune and some not, because I did not get the amount of cotton exactly the same as before.... do I fiddle with the cotton or adjust the offending notes by twisting the "tangents"...... etc.... all this has taken maybe 20-25 minutes and some times longer, for me "the beginner". In the end the Hurdy Gurdy is sounding wonderfull and I am ready to get going on my new tune and the clock says 7.55..... Agggggg. Thats Frustration!

This process happens every time unless one is prepared to play out of tune all the time.....

 

Well, Concertina frustrations when they arise can be more difficult to cure, sometimes requiring a visit to "Dockor Sqweeze". I came upon this topic by putting "gauze" in the search box. This because I was looking for a "Gauze or no Gauze" discussion.

Yesterday I removed the gauze from a woooden ended Aeola because I thought it was not producing enough "punch" for the amount effort applied. I do not wear "Mohair" sweaters or play by the side of smokey Turf fires so I am not concerned about "things" entering/ getting stuck in the reeds etc.

Does anyone here think that a gauze filter in the ends of a Concertina will inhibit the tone/volume produced? Well I really did not think that it would make much difference, but removing it was worth a try. To explain why I need maximum volume; this is a Baritone/treble EC from 1927, I played a T.Treble for many years that was made the week after this Baritone/T and that had ample volume indeed. I am playing with a large band of loud instruments and often cannot hear myself. My, it must look strange, to the audience, when one of the band, some old deaf guy, is trying to play his instrument with his left ear!

Well, Geoff, stop waffling and tell us, did the removal of the gauze make any difference? YES it really did!! Last night was "band practice"... This is French "Musique de Centre"... so the band last night was three Cornemuses ( not quite as loud as Scottish bagpipes but strong enough), three Castagnari diatonic accordions, one Hurdy Gurdy and electric bass guitar and some percussion... oh and me playing an octave below the other melody instruments. Not only could I hear myself but so could my wife, above her Cornemuse from the other side of the room!

I am amazed and very happy to have found the gauze of the problem.

Geoff.

[Rod]

I do not think that Concertina players really have much to complain about, regarding the continuous good service they recieve from their instruments. If you wish to experience "Frustration" then try playing the Hurdy Gurdy! A typical practice period goes like this;

It's 7 in the evening, work finnished, dinner finnished, there is one spare hour before the next interuption, "Yes time to practice my latest tune"..... Hurdy gurdy out of its case, start to tune it... so-so, one string has a bad sound, screeches/ whistles: grates... Baahhh, change the cotton?, maybe the Rosin needs to be renewed or has become sticky or I need to get all the old Rosin off the Wheel and start again... no its just the cotton, take off the worn out cotton and replace, hmmm now that string plays some notes in tune and some not, because I did not get the amount of cotton exactly the same as before.... do I fiddle with the cotton or adjust the offending notes by twisting the "tangents"...... etc.... all this has taken maybe 20-25 minutes and some times longer, for me "the beginner". In the end the Hurdy Gurdy is sounding wonderfull and I am ready to get going on my new tune and the clock says 7.55..... Agggggg. Thats Frustration!

This process happens every time unless one is prepared to play out of tune all the time.....

 

Well, Concertina frustrations when they arise can be more difficult to cure, sometimes requiring a visit to "Dockor Sqweeze". I came upon this topic by putting "gauze" in the search box. This because I was looking for a "Gauze or no Gauze" discussion.

Yesterday I removed the gauze from a woooden ended Aeola because I thought it was not producing enough "punch" for the amount effort applied. I do not wear "Mohair" sweaters or play by the side of smokey Turf fires so I am not concerned about "things" entering/ getting stuck in the reeds etc.

Does anyone here think that a gauze filter in the ends of a Concertina will inhibit the tone/volume produced? Well I really did not think that it would make much difference, but removing it was worth a try. To explain why I need maximum volume; this is a Baritone/treble EC from 1927, I played a T.Treble for many years that was made the week after this Baritone/T and that had ample volume indeed. I am playing with a large band of loud instruments and often cannot hear myself. My, it must look strange, to the audience, when one of the band, some old deaf guy, is trying to play his instrument with his left ear!

Well, Geoff, stop waffling and tell us, did the removal of the gauze make any difference? YES it really did!! Last night was "band practice"... This is French "Musique de Centre"... so the band last night was three Cornemuses ( not quite as loud as Scottish bagpipes but strong enough), three Castagnari diatonic accordions, one Hurdy Gurdy and electric bass guitar and some percussion... oh and me playing an octave below the other melody instruments. Not only could I hear myself but so could my wife, above her Cornemuse from the other side of the room!

I am amazed and very happy to have found the gauze of the problem.

Geoff.

 

Am I the only one who has enjoyed over 30 years of playing my Shire 36 button C/G Anglo with absolutely no problems nor maintenance apart from occasionally removing the metal end-plates to apply a tiny drop of lubricating oil to the pivots and springs? (To hell with those who have told me that I should not do this!) The finely woven fitted fabric behind the end-plates prevents the ingress of dust & dirt and while it may have some effect upon the volume I have no doubt that it improves the sweetness of the tone. ( Hang on,I tell a lie...I have replaced two or three springs during that period !) I play the instrument virtually every day. The tuning has remained spot on. I handle and store the instrument with great care.

[Bill Crossland]

Dirge - what you need is a smalller, cheaper instrument, say 39 key, that you can use when your multi button options run out - I'm always open to offers.....

[Dirge]

Dirge - what you need is a smalller, cheaper instrument, say 39 key, that you can use when your multi button options run out - I'm always open to offers.....

 

You are absolutely right and I've sent you a pm...

[catty]

I do not think that Concertina players really have much to complain about, regarding the continuous good service they recieve from their instruments. If you wish to experience "Frustration" then try playing the Hurdy Gurdy!

 

 

Dude (as they say in the USA) ... my 102-string hammered dulcimer is such a pian in the keister to tune after changing environmental conditions that I've never left the house with it.

 

 

But, I do understand the frustration generally of one's instrument being temperamental or unavailable...even if a concertina.

Edited June 19, 2010 by catty

[Chris Ghent]

Well, Geoff, stop waffling and tell us, did the removal of the gauze make any difference? YES it really did!!

 

Hi Geoff,

I doubt you need this explanation but for anyone else, a thin fabric can only affect higher frequencies. As it happens these are the ones which create a perception of "cut" and make it easier to hear yourself in sessions when they are present. Overall volume is not likely to rise.

 

Taking a fabric baffle out of an instrument is no guarantee of a perceptible volume jump or creating the perception of a volume jump, your instrument has to be producing the higher frequencies in the first place, and also not be cutting them out at some other point of the sound path. Instruments which would be most likely to profit are those with smaller clearances in the reeds and those with smaller chambers. Thus Geoff's Aeola is likely to produce a difference and your average Lasher much less so.

 

As I understand it, which is to say only a little, so don't hesitate to correct, the further up the harmonics you get from the fundamental the more discordant the harmonic is with the fundamental. Consequently cutting the higher harmonics by end design, wider clearances, fitting fabric baffles; all these tend to sweeten the sound. When you reintroduce any higher harmonics by removing a fabric baffle you are in effect introducing a slight discord, hence the "cut". It is only slight so unlikely to take your instrument from OK to unpleasant, but that is the direction you are moving in.

 

The reason a thin obstacle/fabric only affects higher frequencies has to do with wave lengths. If you were listening to a note at 60 hertz, then each wave peak would be 1 second apart, and as long as sound could travel in that time at 760mph. I can't be bothered working out the exact amount here, but lets assume it was approximately 1 metre, or a yard. To stop this frequency you would need something thicker than that metre, or yard. All shorter frequencies would also be blocked. Some effect can be had from blocking the half length of the wave. Only much higher frequencies have waves short enough to be blocked by thin fabric.

 

If you are having constant trouble with reeds sticking it is worth considering vacuuming out the interior. Consider also the possiblilty of warping in the frame putting side pressure on the reed frames. A friend with a new instrument told me recently he had constant trouble at first with stuck reeds, and one day while undoing a screw to clear the most recent he heard a ping and it then cleared. The instrument is lightly built and needed to be screwed together very evenly and as lightly as possible. This would not affect an instrument which did not have very close tolerance reeds.

 

Sorry, went on a bit...

 

Chris

www.concertina.com.au

[Alan Day]

I do not think that Concertina players really have much to complain about, regarding the continuous good service they recieve from their instruments. If you wish to experience "Frustration" then try playing the Hurdy Gurdy! A typical practice period goes like this;

It's 7 in the evening, work finnished, dinner finnished, there is one spare hour before the next interuption, "Yes time to practice my latest tune"..... Hurdy gurdy out of its case, start to tune it... so-so, one string has a bad sound, screeches/ whistles: grates... Baahhh, change the cotton?, maybe the Rosin needs to be renewed or has become sticky or I need to get all the old Rosin off the Wheel and start again... no its just the cotton, take off the worn out cotton and replace, hmmm now that string plays some notes in tune and some not, because I did not get the amount of cotton exactly the same as before.... do I fiddle with the cotton or adjust the offending notes by twisting the "tangents"...... etc.... all this has taken maybe 20-25 minutes and some times longer, for me "the beginner". In the end the Hurdy Gurdy is sounding wonderfull and I am ready to get going on my new tune and the clock says 7.55..... Agggggg. Thats Frustration!

This process happens every time unless one is prepared to play out of tune all the time.....

 

When I played in Rosbif both Mel Stevens and Richard Smith played their Home Made Hurdy Gurdy's. Part of the act was a duet of the two of them.I used to do the talking for the band and those two buzzing in the background for a minimum of five minutes setting up for almost every tune was painful. Very costly too in the recording studio, paid for by the hour with at least thirty minutes set up time, with all the procedures you mention.

Still it was the playing of "FUBU" that got us hooked on French music at about 3AM at Ris Orangis Paris Folk Festival.

Al

[Geoff Wooff]

Well Alan,

I am getting better (faster) at setting up my Hurdy Gurdy, and it does help that it was made by one of the top makers, but my neighbours who play H/gurdy with us in "groups" are very much quicker to organise their instruments but are not that fussy regarding tuning, they just get on with it in a relaxed way. Long years of practice, maybe. Ah FUBU!!

 

Chris;

many thanks for your explaination... it sounds about right and logical. I was thinking that the gauze was chopping the sound waves, sort of sieving the notes. I also feel that the newly released sound is not really louder without the gauze but, much clearer. The overall effect though is of a definate increase in useable volume.

I would imagine that if the same experiment was carried out using a Jeffries from the earlier period where the fret work was delicate, and thus the "holes" make up the greater part of the surface of the end plates, the results might be less dramatic.

 

I once had a Wheatstone "laffaeola" (not sure if that is the correct spelling) and this had very tiny piercings of fret work in its wooden ends, just enough to let the air in and out. This instrument ,although it had the same internal parts, was very quiet due directly to the type of fret work. Not bad for £8 in a second hand shop though.

So, the materials and fretting of the ends does have a marked effect on tone and volume. If this Baritone had metal ends I might not have noticed so much change.

One final note; the gauze that I removed was quite fine and I do not think it was original. In the Wheatstone ledgers my 48 treble is listed with the word "gauze" but does not have, or look as if it ever had, gauze, whereas the Baritone is not listed with the gauze word.

 

However, I am very happy that this instrument met the 3 Castagnaris "wall of sound" head-on and pushed them back into their half of the field, like a valiant knight of the musical battle field..... Blah Blah.

Right, now where's that ******** Hurdy Gurdy.

Geoff.

[tona]

In France we used to say that a hurdy gurdy player spends half of his time tuning it and the other half of his time playing false...

[ocd]

The reason a thin obstacle/fabric only affects higher frequencies has to do with wave lengths. If you were listening to a note at 60 hertz, then each wave peak would be 1 second apart, ...

 

Do you mean 1/60th of a second?

 

ocd

[Chris Ghent]

Probably..!

Chris

[Marien]

Dirge,

 

Jee, it must be WINTER in New Zealand...

 

My Crane Lachenal had to be retuned completely last winter - It was my own fault ( ). After a late gig was tired and I left the instrument in the car only one night while it was freezing. So, inside the chambers, the temperature was decreasing. Water dew got on the reeds. Afterwards - unaware of this - I left it in the house in its closed case a couple of days. Result: corrosion and retuning!

 

So, could your problem have anything to do with your winter? (extreme temperatures, winds, the rain season, sun burn, frost or other climate options???)

 

Best of luck,

Marien