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There are two main problems with the Online Thummer implementation, both related to FlashMIDI. First, FlasMIDI is Windows-only -- no Mac version. Second, FlashMIDI doesn't install properly, so you have to re-install it every time you run the Online Thummer website. You install it by clicking on the place where it says "FlashMIDI Required Click Here To Install" and then follow the instructions that pop up. The Dynamic Tuning demo application requires the Max/MSP runtime, which is free and works on both Windows and the Mac. m3838 commented that the Wicki/Hayden note-layout was not very intuitive. This is certainly true for those whose intuitions are based on deep experience with the piano keyboard's linear sequence of semi-tones. Guitarists find the Wicki/Hayden note-layout to be very intuitive, apparently due to their greater experience with a two-dimensional matrix of note-controlling frets/stings. Intuition is just crystallized experience, after all, so those with different experiences have different intuitions. Other people have suggested that generalized keyboards like the Wicki/Hayden are specifically "intuitive instruments for improvisers." Bottom line: when it comes to intuition, your mileage may vary. The market niche Thumtronics is initially targeting with the Thummer is described here. Ragtimer asked "When you return to the home key tonic chord, after going thru a cycle of 5th chord changes, will it have "drifted" sharp or flat?" Neither. Dynamic Tuning changes the pitch of all notes except the tonic. This presumes the syntonic temperament (i.e., that temperament in which the pitches of all non-tonic notes are derived by stacking tempered perfect fifths one atop the other, and then subtracting octaves, with the tempered major third being equal in width to four tempered perfect fifths minus two octaves), which includes all of the meantone tunings, 12-tone "equal temperament" tuning, and many other interesting tunings. Ragtimer also asked "I take it this system can tune for perfect thirds and the like, as you play? A great concept, especially if it can figure out from the fingered notes on the fly, how to tune a chord! Ragtime, I think that you're thinking of Dynamic Tuning as being like Hermode Tuning, in which the fundamental pitches of notes are adjusted to maximize their alignment with the tonic's overtones, which are presumed to follow the Harmonic Series. Thumtronics' Dynamic Tuning works the other way around -- it adjusts harmonics to align with the current tuning, thereby enabling the performer to change tuning on the fly while retaining consonance. This appears to be a completely new way to solve the Gordian riddle of tuning and consonance. Please note that Dynamic Tuning in not "built into" the Thummer. The Thummer is just a highly-expressive MIDI controller with two Wicki/Hayden keyboards. It just emits MIDI. Dynamic Tuning is set of musical effects made possible by the existence of the Thummer (or at lease, an Online Thummer and a mouse). So, what Thumtronics is offering is three different axes of advantage: 1) easier to learn (using Wicki/Hayden layout, the ThumMusic System, and the ability to enable the expressive controls progressively as one gains skill), 2) more expressive (using thumb-operated joysticks and internal motion sensors, as in the Nintendo Wii), and 3) opening new creative frontiers, through Dynamic Tuning. We've also recently realized that we can make a Pocket Thummer -- a self-contained music-making solution with battery power, built-in sounds, two 2-octave keyboards (of 15 buttons per octave, in the Wicki/Hayden layout), and a ear-bud jack -- which can fit in your pocket, for under $100. All I need to do is raise the monry to get the first product to market, and we should scale up reasonably smoothly after that. That's the plan, anyway. I appreciate your comments and questions -- keep 'em coming! :-) --- Jim

What about a pad with a single "handle" or "stem", which could be lifted by either of two levers, the other lever not moving? There would be some tricky issues, though, which might well make it unworkable, or at least not worth the trouble. E.g., stability, since the handle couldn't be affixed to either lever. Or the fact that neither lever could be allowed to extend into the space above the pad. Nice thinking, Jim. Maybe the pad could have its own, 3rd, idler lever, and each of the button levers could lift it. Tho I don't see where that's an improvement over my idea, and it adds yet more hardware into the cramped quarters. Now there's a good idea. Better than having two reeds, tho it does take more space for the extra pad. Yes, the maker would have more freedom in lever placement -- but he would have to place two pads instead of one as in my scheme. Someone would have to try laying out a complete instrument in order to compare the two approaches. And at that point, he might as well go ahead and build it (BTW, "my" scheme may be what Rich Morse was thinking of. I don't recall Rich telling me the details of his link system, tho he might have. I hope I'm not giving away any trade secrets! Nor taking credit for another's idea.) Now there's an idea I really like -- non-tempered "enharmonics", so we can get meantone tuning's perfect 3rds. I really hate the sound of tempered major 3rds on my box. Getting both pitches out of one reed would really be a winner. That is, till my next session with the band ... Same here. But the fact that your big tina produces the same pitch and timbre from either pad makes me doubt that the enharmonic trick could be made to work. Tho I'd love to see a maker with time on his handds (oxymoron right there!) tinker with it. Does anyone still own/play an EC with non-enharmonically tuned Eb and D#, or F# and Gb? --Mike K.

I met a fellow pianoman at the weekend and his Lachenal 48b English, (tuned to quarter comma meantone). He had his 'tina in a traditional hex box but someone previous to his owning it, had put a loop-latch over the original lock and put a case handle diagonally on the same front face of the box for carrying and to encourage one to store the whole thing on its side thus rendering the valve set safe from the static droop suffered by so many a concertina. Good idea which perhaps should be copied by people still using the original boxes? Paul

I agree that 0.1 cent accuracy is a waste of your time spent punching the + and - buttons over and over to make the pattern stand still. Better to work in 1-cent increments. OK, 0.5 for mechanical engineers But keep in mind that the consequences of poor tuning are not so much between two notes of the same pitch (though in different octaves), but rather in other intervals. Two C's, one 3 cents flat and hte other 3 cents sharp, will have a noticeable but pleasant "wet" or "celeste" beat to them. But, a C that is 3 cents flat and and E that is 3 cents sharp, will add 6 cents to an Major Third interval that, in Equal Temperament, is already 14 cents too wide. Equal thirds sound bad enough already, so sloppy tuning just makes them even worse. So in general, if you tune an entire instrument with too much tolerance, some *intervals* will be too wide, and some too narrow, so some chords will sound rotten while others sound better than average. The guy who always tuens on the sharp side of tolerance has a better chance of avoiding this problem. The best solution is to pick a temperament sytem (equal, meantone, just, whatever) and then tune with as much precision as you can reasonably muster. And hope that when the player squeezes really hard, all the reeds go off by the same amount. --Mike K.

I'm learning to play an old Wheatstone English concertina - I haven't dared look inside, all I've done is mend the thumbstrap. I suspect that the instrument hasn't been played all that much - the upper octaves are pretty much in tune (although one high accidental only sounds on the push and squarks on the pull) - and it must be pretty old - it's definitely in meantone tuning. The lowest octave is less prompt to sound and a couple of the notes are very out of tune. The bellows seem fine (not that I would know) and there's no splits on the ends. I think it just needs a good servicing. I'm based in Merseyside. Do you recommend anybody? (I realise that an alternative would be to sell the instrument and buy one that's already been repaired, but I'm attached to this one now).

Dana wrote: "This is an interesting point. I've heard a number of good fiddlers be less distinct about the C / C# note and a few others as well. It isn't as though they can't play the "right" note, rather that the music allows and even incourages some ambiguity here. " Dana, I think your language may lead some readers to a conclusion you probably don't share: that is, that the equal-tempered values of "C" or "C#" are somehow right, and that when a great fiddler, whistle-player, fluter or piper uses a different value (or a whole series of different values) for these notes he or she is somehow in an "ambiguous" zone between these "normal" or "correct" values. That point of view (which as I noted, you probably don't share but which your language suggests) is exactly backward. In many kinds of traditional music, but for example in Irish music as played by the greatest players I have heard, musicians are very deliberately and skillfully going for the RIGHT pitches that they want to hear, but very often those correct notes cannot be found on an equal tempered instrument, or by playing a fiddle (etc.) in perfect equal temperament. Dana wrote: "I think in the wrong hands the tuning would be a disaster, but in the right hands it could open up a whole new world." Rather, this is getting closer to the older, original, and traditional sound of the early german concertinas and anglo concertinas. Chris, I'm not going to publish much more of my unpublished work on tunings here, but your own experiments will doubtless lead you to tunings you will find very useful in your goal to make harmonies on the anglo sound more like those of the Irish pipes. I will tell you that I have coined a new term (never yet published), "decoupled tunings" to refer to the class of tunings for bisonoric instruments in which the "same named note" (e.g. D#) has a different pitch value on the press vs. the draw of the bellows. Thus there is a large family of "just-decoupled tunings" and another of "meantone-decoupled" tunings in each of which the press and draw values for the same note are decoupled in pitch, allowing the harmony among the family of notes in each bellows direction to be optimized. Now are you starting to understand my objection in a previous thread when you listed a set of 12 pitch values and called it "the chromatic scale in just intonation." Again, there is NO set of 12 pitches/octave that will guarantee the music stays in just intonation. Paul

DEAR m3838: the first thing to decide is just what music you'll be playing and with whom you'll be playing it. . . . .if you're with a piano, i'm not sure a meantone instrument is the best choice: you and the piano will never agree on the G#/Ab or D#/Eb complex. . . . .you'll be OK in a few keys. . . .but then the going gets a bit ragged. . . . . . a nice compromise is one that i had done by Wim Wakker a few years ago. . . . .we re-tuned an 1860s treble to Thomas Young's so-called "well"-temperament No. 1. . . . .which he outlined in 1801. . . . .it was based on an earlier tuning (late 18th-c) by Vallotti. . . . . .it works as follows: (1) the major third C - E = 392 cents (in equal temp a major third is 400 cents) (2) the major thirds grow in size as one goes about the circle of fifths in BOTH directions. . . .and they grow symmetrically. . . .thus: the major third G - B = F - A; D - F# = Bb - D. . . .and so forth until you arrive at (3) F# - A# (= Gb- Bb) = 408 cents now, the instrument that i had so tuned has become my "regular" instrument. . . . .i play it against the piano. . . .and i do so in a wide range of keys. . . .and no one has ever said that the concertina is out of tune. . . .on the other hand, it permits each key (actually pairs of keys) to have a slightly different character. . . . . .thus as the major thirds get wider, the keys sound somewhat more brilliant, sparkling, call it what you will. . . . . . . if it's some reading you want to do, the following will get you started: Owen Jorgensen, TUNING: CONTAINING THE PERFECTION OF EIGHTEENTH-CENTURY TEMPERAMENT. . .(Michigan State U. Press, 1991) Thomas Donahue, A GUIDE TO MUSICAL TEMPERAMENT (Scarecrow Press, 2005) two very interesting articles on the pairing of instruments tuned to different temperaments: J.H. Chestnut, "Mozart's Teaching of Intonation," JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MUSICOLOGICAL SOCIETY, 30 (1977) David Boyden, "Prelleur, Geminiani, and Just Intonation," IBID., 4 (1951) and it's not just a matter of inverting chords on the Eng Conc. . . . .you're also better off playing them in "open" position. . . . .thus if you want to play a C-major chord in root position. . . . .instead of playing C - E - G. . . .try C - G - E (with the E a tenth above the C). . . . .tends to sound better that way. . . .and i'd certainly keep away from closed position chords in the upper register. . . .UNBEARABLE............allan

I'm interested in answers here as well. I'll soon be sending my circa 1850 baritone EC off to get (among other things) tuned. One possibiliity is meantone (so the Ab and G# differ, among other things). From what I've read that might make the thirds sound better and the fifths a bit worse. I will probably not be playing this instrument in a session (it is quite mellow and soft, hard to hear in a noisy bar) so I'l probably be playing it in my study, solo. I've looked at the old threads on temperament and can't quite decide what to do.

Going on my own ear and intuition, I'd say the difference is not so much the number of harmonics, but rather that concertina reed pans have resonances or "formants" that emphasize certain harmonics (relatively low-numbered, like 3rd thru 8th) and thus give character to the sound, just as each person's voice is different. Accordions tend to give you the sound of the reed as it is, a good but less individual sound. Ironic, since the perpendicular reed cells of accordions could be used to advantage to color the sound. Certainly true as far as the listener is concerned, tho not the player This sounds backwards to me. Equal tempered tuning, where the major 3rds are way sharp, is much more tolerable on an instrument with a rounder, duller tone (like a piano) than with a brighter, more harmonic-rich tone (as a harpsichord or Baroque pipe organ). However, a 20-button Anglo is usually played only in a few related keys, so is well suited for a Meantone temperament. This will make it sound much better and mellower. A piano or chromatic button accordion is expected to play in a wide range of keys, so must be tuned equal tempered, as much as we hate it. FWIW, I play a Hayden Duet and the equal-tempered 3rds do get on my nerves at times. --Mike K. Hmm. I don't know about accordion reeds sounding as is. I have altered some with buffles, and top notch PAs with hard wood polished reedbanks sound rounder than cheaper Hohners with rougher surfaces inside. To my ears accordion reeds do make better harmonies. Those cheap german 20 button make more pleasant chords, they don't sound like a bunch of sea lions, and the latter is my impression of most true concertinas' chords. Esp. in lower register. Perhabs it has less to do with overtones, but more with poorer tuning or playing technique. Or to equal temp? I am currently working on Wim Wakker's tutor, and the Menuet has to be arranged differenty, the intervals are just not tasty on the Jack's lower notes. Single notes sound better. On the other hand, pretty much any two consecutive buttons on my Hohner Pokerwork give out very agreeable interval, and it's not mean tuned.

Going on my own ear and intuition, I'd say the difference is not so much the number of harmonics, but rather that concertina reed pans have resonances or "formants" that emphasize certain harmonics (relatively low-numbered, like 3rd thru 8th) and thus give character to the sound, just as each person's voice is different. Accordions tend to give you the sound of the reed as it is, a good but less individual sound. Ironic, since the perpendicular reed cells of accordions could be used to advantage to color the sound. Certainly true as far as the listener is concerned, tho not the player This sounds backwards to me. Equal tempered tuning, where the major 3rds are way sharp, is much more tolerable on an instrument with a rounder, duller tone (like a piano) than with a brighter, more harmonic-rich tone (as a harpsichord or Baroque pipe organ). However, a 20-button Anglo is usually played only in a few related keys, so is well suited for a Meantone temperament. This will make it sound much better and mellower. A piano or chromatic button accordion is expected to play in a wide range of keys, so must be tuned equal tempered, as much as we hate it. FWIW, I play a Hayden Duet and the equal-tempered 3rds do get on my nerves at times. --Mike K.

Since I recall learning about that here in this Forum, I suggest a search of the C.net archives. Searching all Discussion Forums for the word "temperament" gave me more than 50 Topics. I don't have time to check them all out, but the following Topic titles look promising: An Instrument With Meantone Tuning What Is A Well Tempered Concertina? Unequaly Temper Tuning Just Intonation Suggestions Mean Temperament

'Fraid not Roger, I bought that one at Sotheby's, it was never one of Fred's boxes. You're maybe confusing it with that (matching) superlative G/D you have, which Paul did get from Fred. I always admired that one greatly, and could have bought it, but wouldn't because I don't play Anglo. I'm glad you ended up with it, and the Bb/F. Roger kindly allowed me to take measurements of that particular instrument earlier this summer. I have it measured with so many cents plus or minus from equal temperament. Unfortunately, it is also in old pitch. Once I figure out how to do the pitch transformations (!) it is my intent to compare its deviations from equal temperament to various published 'common' unequal temperaments of the nineteenth century, to see which one (if any) fits. I shall share the results here, but don't hold your breath..it may take me a while to get to it. The chords sound really fine on that GD; although they are not beatless, they have a grandness to them. Kimber's music (just using him as an English example) sounds just plain harsh on equal temperament instruments because he plays mostly third intervals, and those thirds sound just awful in ET. The quote that Theodore Kloba came up with fits well with this; to apply that here, you wouldn't want to play Kimber music on an ET instrument at anything but a fevered tempo. I have a feeling that K's first concertina was in some sort of unequal temperament, or else he would have played in a fifths chording style, perhaps. Recently, I retuned one of my concertinas, with accordion reeds, from ET to quarter comma meantone (popular still in the early to middle nineteenth century, especially with organs and church music), to see how it would sound. It has a much better sound for almost any type of chording than ET, in my humble opinion; it is not for nothing that organists were amongst the last holdouts against the ET steamroller in the music world. I know that Wim Wakker likes Young (1799) for late nineteenth century concertinas. Wim points out that it isn't just the chord fundamentals that one needs to watch out for, but how the higher harmonics relate to the harmonics if other notes in the chords as well. That gets beyond my current ken! I also know some members of this forum are playing around with Just tuning, both for pipe-like sound (Irish music) and for Kimber playing (it gives pure thirds, when the CG anglo is only played in C and G). I'm keen to hear how those instruments turn out. As I understand it, Just makes the thirds pure, and in keys very close to the home key, most (but not all) of the commonly played fifths are reasonably close to pure as well. One could make a nice hobby just out of fooling around with old temperaments...if one didn't just descend into madness with the weirdness of it all!

I've always wondered about that, whether any English 'tinas were ever tuned to have separate pitches for G#/Ab and D#/Eb. There are English pipe organs from Handel's time with split keys for those notes. You're the first person I've heard to claim that originally Englsih concertinas were indeed tuned in unequal temperament, with the separate "black" notes. I think that's a great idea. A related question: How unequal could a 'tina's tuning be and still play acceptably with guitar, mandolin, fiddle, flutes (recorders, penny whistles), and other instruments whose pitch isn't quite as nailed-down as the piano's? Those are the isntruments that I, and many others here, play along with. And yes, amny times I wish my Hayden were tuned in meantone -- those major thirds just don't sound clean. --Mike Knudsen

Hi Frank, Since you don't seem to mind the sound of harmonies in equal temperament, this discussion may indeed seem interesting to you only "from an academic point of view." But to many musicians (and many of these completely unschooled in music theory) it's just about the very practical, visceral issue of how beautiful the music sounds. I think the point of Chris's question and of his plans so far is that he would like his concertina to recreate the tuning of the Irish pipes, with a view to emulating the moving, pure and resonant harmonies that he hears in the music of Willie Clancy and others. Whether you are a good player or a bad player and whether you play with other musicians or not, harmonies on the concertina will not sound like the characteristic harmonies created on the Irish pipes if the concertina is in equal temperament. The points you raise are not really relevant to his aim. Of course, the concertina is not the pipes. There are things the pipes can do that the concertina cannot, and vice-versa. So in my personal view the tuning that seems to be preferred for the Irish pipes (we might say that this is in fact the "standard" for THAT instrument) may not be the ideal for concertinas, even they are used in playing Irish music. But it is significant that many concertina players do prefer the sound of thirds that are pure (or purer than in ET), when they have a chance to hear them, as Theo and others have noted. The harsh thirds of ET to which many of us grew accustomed while learning music from pianos, etc., are even more offensive to a sensitive ear when played on the concertina (especially in its treble range), compared with most instruments. These thirds can be dramatically improved, at least in a core group of preferred keys, by use of any of the alternative tunings or temperaments that have been discussed in this thread (excluding equal temperament and "Pythagorean tuning"). And as mentioned in previous threads, the meantone temperaments actually seem to be original and perhaps formative for the early history of the English-fingering concertina, and have a special role in playing some of the repertoire for that instrument. To single out Colin Dipper's melodeon in the context of this discussion suggests that, today, deviations from equal temperament are few or anomalous. But in fact, leaving aside whole genres such as cajun music, a good number of the best players of free reed instruments use instruments in non-ET tunings and temperaments as an important part of their sound (see for example Peter Laban's comments above). Yet beautiful harmony need not be restricted to the best musicians. Any concertinist who uses chords can benefit from having the thirds sweetened, from his or her first day of playing. There will continue to be an important role for equal temperament, especially for those who can and do play in all 12 keys on the same instrument. But for the concertinists whose playing is concentrated in a few keys and their modes (probably most of us), there are many tuning options that will sweeten the thirds considerably. Paul

David, There is a habit in Irish music of omitting the "#" when writing the notes "F#" and "C#." This is not universal, but common enough that it is a “slang” that needs to be understood to communicate with many excellent players. This may have come about through the illiteracy, or near-illiteracy, of some players and teachers (to be fair, for hundreds of years a good few of the best players of Irish traditional harp, pipes, and fiddle were blind), and from the emphasis on the natural scale of D as a point of reference, rather than that of C for “standard” (European) written notation. Thus the Irish have often notated the D major scale: D E F B A B C d. I think the Scottish highland pipers use a similar shorthand. Keep in mind that in both cases (highland pipes and Irish pipes) we are talking about a very characteristic set of pitches that do not correspond exactly with the pitches that most contemporary keyboard players would have used, even back when those keyboards were also not in ET, so in a sense to notate this scale D E F# G A B C# d might also have been misleading! At any rate, in his discussion of the ET'd concertina he heard I believe Peter was referring to the notes you would call d and f#. Note that I do not imply by illiteracy any lack of quality! Remember Homer, et al. The finest tradition of Irish instrumental music has been described by O'Riada as an "orally transmitted art music" (i. e., not a "folk music"), analogous to the art music of India. The failure to adhere to a particular notational convention should not draw attention from the brilliance of the Irish piping tradition, in its own terms. Allan, One interesting source that compares several of the historically significant microtonal/enharmonic/syntonic/meantone fingering charts published for violin is P. Barbieri's article "Violin intonation: a historical survey," published in Early Music in 1991. Barbieri reproduces and analyzes the chart by Geminiani, but also those by Galeazzi, Warren, Loehlein, etc. A very interesting issue (and very relevant both to "fine traditional" and "amateur folk" fiddling) is whether the open strings were/are tuned to pure, or ET, or 1/4 comma -narrowed (etc.) fifth intervals. I'm sure there are many other reproductions and discussions of these charts but that is one article I have to hand. PG

I agree that the choice of temperament may be dictated by the repertory played. . . . .mine is mainly the Victorian classical repertory for the "English". . . . and it means playing with a piano most of the time. . . . . .so equal -- or something close enough to it (in my own case, Young's No. 2) -- is probably best. . . . . in fact, one could make a case for Young's No. 2 also being every bit as much suited for the English country dance repertory. . . . .bear in mind, that England was rather late in adopting equal temperament. . . . .the Broadwood piano firm (the largest in England) did not adopt EQ as its standard until the mid-1840s). . . . .prior to that time, it's likely that the various "well"-temperaments (and these are not meantone temperaments) prevailed. . . . .there are two very good essays about just this by a fellow named Alexander Mackenzie of Ord in THE JOURNAL OF BRITISH ORGAN STUDIES. . . . one article is from 1979 (i think), the other from the '90s. . . . . . there is also a fascinating document drawn up in the late 18th c. by the violinist Gemignani (i think he was the one). . . . .it shows the neck of the violin and the four strings running along its length. . . . .then it shows where to place the fingers for the various notes (and does so "in scale", so to speak). . . . .what is very clear from the places at which one should put one's fingers is this: G. is not describing EQ. . . . . .if anyone wants to know where all of this is. . .. .let me know, and i'll post it. . . .would have to dig it up...........allan

I use concertinas tuned to three different temperaments during the course of my lecture-recitals: there's one in equal temperament, another in meantone (this instrument likely belonged to the William Peel, sone of the prime minister), which i use to play unaccompanied stuff. . . .it produces a real "twang" when used against the piano. . . . .and the instrument that i use most was recently retuned according to Thomas Young's "Well Temperament No. 2", which he describes in his essay on acoustics from 1800. . . . . .briefly: the major third C - E is narrow. . . .then the thirds grow wider and wider as we go around the circle of fifths simultaneously in both directions. . . .so the thirds G - B and F - A will be wider and equal to one another. . . .the thirds D - F sharp and B flat - D will be wider still and equal to one another. . . . .and so on and so on until one reaches the widest third with F sharp - A sharp (= G flat - B flat). . . .one of the pieces that we (the NY Victorian Consort) do is a piece by the Italian-born Angelo Mascheroni, who immigrated to London. . . .the piece is called "For All Eternity". . . .it's in E flat. . . .but modulates to G flat. . . .that passage has the voice and the obligato part (which i take on the concertina) in unison. . . .and we find that it causes some real "tension"........allan

One of the features of meantone tunings( there is a whole family of them) is that they tend to push all the tuning inconsitencies into a very small range of distant keys, leaving a large number of keys with very much the same harmonic properties. This certainly suits western European folk music very well, but might not be so good for smoe of the more classical English Concertina repertoire. I suspect that ET tuning appears to be standard because it has become the default tuning for all fixed pitch instruments, not just concertinas. Many players are not even aware that there are other possibilities, among those that are aware, many are frightened off by the hideous complexities that appear as soon as you start to research the subject. But once you can hear the difference you may never want to hear an equally tempered third again. A good cellist or violinist should be continuously tuning by ear and so might naturally not be playing in equal temper. In that case they would have to raise the pitch of the 7th to bring it up from their natural tuning and make it closer to ET to match the fixed pitch instruments in the orchestra. Lets just throw away all these instruments and sing instead. Singers just tune to each other all the time so its not a problem.

Absolutely, the B row of a B/C should probably be best regarded as being the "semitone" row, rather than as being for playing upon. Certainly classical musicians have been conditioned to believe this for the past 150-odd years. It came about because the Romantic composers wanted to be able to modulate into any key on keyboard instruments, so that Berlioz (in his Treatise on Orchestration) described the meantone tuning of the English concertina as "barbarous". But though equal temperament is equally in tune in all keys, it is also equally out of tune in all keys, which is why it tends to sound rather harsh ... I asked Marc Savoy about the origins of "Cajun tuning" when we were both at the Michaelstein Conference, and he explained that it came about when Cajuns found that they needed to build their own accordions after WWII. They didn't know anything about tuning, and didn't yet have access to electronic tuners, so they originally tuned by ear using perfect thirds ...

But on 4th/5th apart systems such as G/C D/G etc this would not be a problem. I've got the impresion (not here) that equal temperament is seen some musicians eyes (ears?) as being the true standard of tuning. For example I've heard people refer to unequal temperaments as if they were somehow less in tune. In the case of instruments designed to be played only in a limited raneg of keys the reverse is true. In the case of very limited instruments eg 1-row melodeons, and even 20 key concertinas there is little positive reason to use ET at all. I've used 1/4 comma meantone on a few boxes. The most marked effect is that chords sound smooth and calm, and chords played on thge upper octave become useful. Untill you have listened to this it hard to appreciate the difference, which can be quite dramatic. The example which makes it most obvious is the tuning of thirds. In "standard" ET tuning 5ths are only very slightly different from the ideal tuning, so if you play an open fifth on a concertina or piano, you hear quite a pure harmony. The major thirds though are actually out of tune by approximately 14 cents. That is a big diffrerence, and if you play a major third on the same instrument you will hear a much harder sound. This is partly because its a different interval of course, but if you are able to produce a major third that is narrower by about 14 cents the result has the purity of harmony that we commonly experience when we hear a pure fifth.

FOLKS: with respect to the range of Warren's "Last Rose" and "Bellini Variations": LAST ROSE: extends from the b (just below middle c') to g''' BELLINI VARIATIONS: extends from g (a fourth beneath middle c') to a''' thus neither piece requires the range of a 48-button instrument........... assuming that the published versions (and they were published well after the premieres) are what regondi played in 1834 and 1837. . . .he would have needed instruments with those ranges. . . . .obviously, the version that he performed back in the '30s could have differed somewhat from those published some twenty years later................allan P.S.: both pieces call for the duplicate accidentals. . . . .though they can be played without them (from a technical point of view). . . . . . .in fact, i can't remember the last time i touched the low d sharp. . . . .i use the low e flat almost all the time (even when the note notated is d sharp. . . unless i'm playing on my meantone instrument. . . in which case i'm careful to distinguish between the buttons)........just one of my own idiosyncracies.............allan

STEPHEN AND FOLKS: might have been NW's great-great-great (do we need another one)-grandfather. . . . . . . . . the question that you raise about the 38-button instrument -- otherwise high quality-- when 48s were becoming the standard is a good one. . . . . . . .as is the question about "musical" priorities. . . . . . . i think, though, that we have to look at the repertory that was available for the instrument. . . . . .as far as i can tell, there wasn't very much around. . . . . . .and though Joseph Warren had already begun to turn out virtuoso showpieces such as his variations on "The Last Rose of Summer" and the theme from the Bellini opera (the first of which Regondi played in Ireland in 1834 -- i find that truly amazing -- and both of which he played at the birmingham festival in 1837), the instrument was sold in 1843, prior, i think, to the time that regondi and blagrove started turning out their own big pieces. . . . . . . QUESTION FOR YOU (you would be the one to know): what would the layout have been on that 38-button instrument. . . . . .to what extent did it sacrifice "range" (OK--let's say it lost a note or so at the very top) and to what extent did they reduce the number of buttons by doing without the "duplicate" E flats/D sharps and A flats/G sharps (and thus sacrificing the instruments distinctive "meantone" tuning). . . . . .perhaps musical priorities were not entirely thrown to the wind. . . . . . allan

FOLKS: for what it's worth -- perhaps nothing: my Wheatstone no. 5899, a brass-reeded, meantone-tuned, English, which seems to have been purchased for the first time by William Peel, third son of the Prime Minister, on 5 March 1856, was rescued from a Christchurch antique shop about six or seven years ago...........William Peel, we might note, had close ties to NZ.............Allan

Though I recall seeing a reference, in one of the old Free Reed magazines, to Regondi having both meantone and equal-tempered concertinas. Unfortunately the magazines are in Kilrush, and I am in Dublin at the moment, so I cannot be more precise.

Jim Another great story from a man with many of them! Yes, especially when playing in G on a fife (or old system flute), the 4th scale degree is often played sharp (relative to equal temperament) by traditional players. Modern ears might expect a "c natural" but what is produced (often by half-holing or by one of several "forked fingerings") might be "toward a c sharp." A true, equal tempered C natural CAN be made on most of these instruments if desired, but for reasons of simplicity of execution, timbre, or maybe just the "flavor" of the music, the older musicians would seldom do so. Some whistle, flute, and melodeon players actually play a true C# in a tonality based on G in certain situations, giving the "fa mode" (G, A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G). This can sound pretty odd to some modern ears but to me it can sound tangy and strong (e.g. the old 78 of melodeon genius P. J. Conlon playing "The Banks of Newfoundland"). A less extreme example in Irish music is the whistle playing of Micho Russell, RIP, who often used the "one finger" version of "C" (2nd finger, left hand, only) which is very sharp and flavorful. I love playing with Jimmy Hogan, another great Clare whistle player, living in the Boston area, who (like Willy Clancy) uses every shade of C to C# including upward slides in pitch. But actually a sharp fourth can be part of a "standard scale" -- the meantone scales with their very narrow (flat) fifths also, as a corollary, have sharp fourths. I have heard that a talented young musician has been researching the use of such scales by traditional fiddlers. Paul