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Thank you Geoff, it seems that overthere is the answer to a million of questions..., starting with the derivation resp. meaning of the term "meantone". Best - Wolf (not possible to provide a hyperlink this morning as it is erased with the preview - ??)

Yes there are charts on the web. Go to www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm there you will find a calculator page that will show you off sets in cents from ET for more Tuning systems than you have all night to plough through. Caveat ITM: If your principle use of Concertina in ITM is playing single line melodies, in 'Session with others, with the very occasional chords then there is little point in going to Quarter Comma .. it is for the beauty of the sweetened chords that one would wish to go a Meantone tempered keyboard. PS; remember that 'all' the keys I'd suggested above are only available for instruments that can have seperate D# and Eb and G# and Ab buttons. PPS. for a solo instrument or one just to sing to... then 1/4 Comma is very nice.... for a compromise , to sweeten things but still be acceptable to play with other instruments then look to 1/5th or 1/6th Comma.

Thanks Geoff, and great chart Terry! If you were playing in an EQ session how out of tune would you sound if tuned quarter comma meantone and playing in D. Is there a chart on the net some where which lists the deflections from EQ in cents?

Well, they certainly used 1/4 Comma, I have come across several EC's from the 1850- 1880's that were still well enough in tune with themselves to determine the temperament used. I recall Harry Crabb using the term " Uneven Temperament" which I assumed (perhaps wrongly) at the time to refer to Meantone, so maybe he was refering to one of the Irregular sytems ??

Anyone know which meantone tunings were used by makers in mid 19th century? Ed: moved to new topic.

If you don't know about temperaments, you should check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament as a useful starting point. In brief 1/5 comma meantone is a compromise that allows you to play in almost every key and have "sweeter" chords (particularly major thirds) than you will usually get on concertinas tuned in equal temperament. 1/4 comma is better, but limits the keys that can be played in. Why? well, it is a long story. Check around in these forums and you'll find some fairly long discussions of all of this. cboody, I think 1/4 comma does not limit the number of keys one can use any more than 1/5th, or 1/6th etc... it Just limits the types of instruments one might join with for emsemble playing.. other instruments in ET will have notes that clash strongly when playing in keys other than a few very close to the Root key. Hi Goeff, No, 1/4 comma makes the purity of chords vary more from the home key to keys further away on the circle of fifths. I well remember an old recording discussing temperament. A reed organ was tuned perfectly to 1/4 comma mean G major. "God Save the Queen" was played in G, D, A, E, B, F# and C#/Db. The last of these was termed "a useful but horrible example," and that was certainly true. Here's an example comparing ET and 1/4 comma. Those "far out" chords will be less objectionable in 1/5 comma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWLpPF4f1XA Edited to add: and this set of examples http://kevinboone.net/temperament_test.html And some good discussion here http://www2.siba.fi/akustiikka/index.php?id=50&la=en Finally, you suggest 11 keys as useful with 1/5 comma while the literature lists 9 with 1/4 comma. All this said though I certainly do agree with you though that the need to match with ET instruments is probably the big determining factor choosing between 1/4 and 1/5 comma. Now the real question: Did ET phone home in ET?? Chuck, we are getting 'thread drift' so I'll move my comments over to the Quarter comma thread . Geoff.

If you don't know about temperaments, you should check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament as a useful starting point. In brief 1/5 comma meantone is a compromise that allows you to play in almost every key and have "sweeter" chords (particularly major thirds) than you will usually get on concertinas tuned in equal temperament. 1/4 comma is better, but limits the keys that can be played in. Why? well, it is a long story. Check around in these forums and you'll find some fairly long discussions of all of this. cboody, I think 1/4 comma does not limit the number of keys one can use any more than 1/5th, or 1/6th etc... it Just limits the types of instruments one might join with for emsemble playing.. other instruments in ET will have notes that clash strongly when playing in keys other than a few very close to the Root key. Hi Goeff, No, 1/4 comma makes the purity of chords vary more from the home key to keys further away on the circle of fifths. I well remember an old recording discussing temperament. A reed organ was tuned perfectly to 1/4 comma mean G major. "God Save the Queen" was played in G, D, A, E, B, F# and C#/Db. The last of these was termed "a useful but horrible example," and that was certainly true. Here's an example comparing ET and 1/4 comma. Those "far out" chords will be less objectionable in 1/5 comma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWLpPF4f1XA Edited to add: and this set of examples http://kevinboone.net/temperament_test.html And some good discussion here http://www2.siba.fi/akustiikka/index.php?id=50&la=en Finally, you suggest 11 keys as useful with 1/5 comma while the literature lists 9 with 1/4 comma. All this said though I certainly do agree with you though that the need to match with ET instruments is probably the big determining factor choosing between 1/4 and 1/5 comma. Now the real question: Did ET phone home in ET??

I'm thinking of retuning the brass-reeded Aeola in my avatar to 1/5 comma meantone, centred on G - which is where my voice is centred. I'm after a sweeter tuning for song accompaniment.

Yes, but how do you get to your G from say (for arguments sake a-440Hz) Are you going to take an ET whole-tone, meantone (which comma?),or go through 2 perfect fifths (Pythagorean)? If you want to start with G as your root note, perhaps it would then be better to give up defining A in Hz like the rest of the world and define your G in Hz instead? Yes Will, absolutely, the wolf just follows the circle of fifths around, so on a 30 button G/D, I'd plump for an A# rather than a Bb. On a Bb/F, a C# instead of a Db and on an F/C, a G# and not an Ab. However, as you know, on my 38 button anglos, I have both :-) Adrian Edited to add PS. I should say that I look at my anglos as transposing instruments, in that I read as though they were all in C/G. If I was reading in absolute pitches, I'd of course have a different idea about this. and PPS. Using a different root note does not alter where you put your wolf, which is a different question, but it will have the effect of lowering, or raising your A pitch standard by a few Hz.

I started with several button accordions in D/G and C/F, which I played for ten years before starting (and in very short order switching entirely to) anglo concertina. But I actually got my first concertina only a year after I started playing button accordions -- I met Rich Morse at Pinewoods and he lent me his Wheatstone Hayden for a week, and I was absolutely hooked, and bought a Stagi Hayden. At the time, I was playing for a lot of English Country Dances, and I would play my Pokerworks for tunes in friendly keys and switch to guitar for others; I saw the Hayden as another option for all those tunes in flat keys. But it didn't work out that way, as I couldn't stand playing a Stagi, so that instrument languished in its case for a decade before I finally sold it on consignment. My first anglo was a Morse G/D, which became my primary instrument in very short order, used largely for morris dancing. But I found myself often borrowing a friend's Morse C/G for concertina workshops, and when he passed away I inherited his instrument. That's now my primary instrument, and it's now a 32-button. I hardly play my G/D, though I might if I played for dances in a ceilidh band or something. My third anglo will be a 38-button Jeffries layout instrument. I recently acquired a set of good Wheatstone reeds mostly salvaged from a 1925 Aeola and supplemented with other low reeds to fill out the anglo layout, and I'll build a new instrument around them in time to give the Aeola (or at least its reeds, buttons, and endbolts) a rebirth by its 90th birthday (which will be in February). My plan is that this instrument will be tuned in 1/4 Comma Meantone while the Morse will stay in Equal Temperment.

I'd say use A, otherwise your root note would have to be defined by their relationship to A (If you start with a C, how do you get there from say, A=440Hz, by meantone, ET etc.? In this case it would be better to define your C in Hz, as I know some French harpsichordists do.) More important perhaps is where you put your wolf (sorry Wolf!) - do you go for an Eb or a D#? Ideally you could try to have both, but on a 30 button Anglo, you'd have to choose. (I'd go for D#, on a C/G, to give me a good B natural chord) Adrian

If you don't know about temperaments, you should check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament as a useful starting point. In brief 1/5 comma meantone is a compromise that allows you to play in almost every key and have "sweeter" chords (particularly major thirds) than you will usually get on concertinas tuned in equal temperament. 1/4 comma is better, but limits the keys that can be played in. Why? well, it is a long story. Check around in these forums and you'll find some fairly long discussions of all of this. cboody, I think 1/4 comma does not limit the number of keys one can use any more than 1/5th, or 1/6th etc... it Just limits the types of instruments one might join with for emsemble playing.. other instruments in ET will have notes that clash strongly when playing in keys other than a few very close to the Root key.

I once had a neighbour whose registration plate on his Lamborgini was III 111...... he really fancied himself ! However, just a quick answer to your question as I really have to be working just now; in 1/5 Comma the Fifths will 'sing' a little more than in ET... so to compare; the ET major Fifth is 700 cents appart... a pure Fifth is 702 cents and a 1/5th Comma Fifth is 698 cents. So this means that the Meantone Fifths will be very slightly more narrow and will sing 2 cents more than the ET variety. It is not much and they are not harsh sounding... I'll try to find time to make some recording comparisons. As a comparison I did a test last weekend , for the Tuning Accuracy topic, regarding octaves. I found that if two notes an octave appart were within one Cent of exactly a doubling of frequency then I could not hear any out of tune-ness. When the notes were 2 cents appart I could detect some inaccuracy. When the notes were 3 cents appart I could determine which note was sharp and which was flat...! I used a Strobe type tuner set to measure to 0.1 of a Cent to determine this and then averaged the differences to the nearest whole cent of clarity in explaination. I should say that in my day job I have to play instruments that are out of tune for hours on end as I gradually bring them into tune and thus I am ,usually, quite tolerant of 'out of tuneness'. I did find a good website recently which describes and charts out all the better know Temperaments and one can click back and forth to view the values... I'll try to find it again...............

If you don't know about temperaments, you should check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament as a useful starting point. In brief 1/5 comma meantone is a compromise that allows you to play in almost every key and have "sweeter" chords (particularly major thirds) than you will usually get on concertinas tuned in equal temperament. 1/4 comma is better, but limits the keys that can be played in. Why? well, it is a long story. Check around in these forums and you'll find some fairly long discussions of all of this.

Thanks for all the responses. It will take me a little while to absorb all the info that has been imparted. Just in case I do decide to go to a "meantone temperament", where can one get it done? The instrument would probably be a Morse Geordie tenor/treble. Would it be best to send it back to the Button Box (which would be fine if they do it), or are there other options? Oren

A hearty welcome to the land of concertinas! As to the harsh thirds, this has been discussed a lot here. The effect increases due to the free reeds' complete lack in decay but is in fact a result of equal temperament. In order to avoid the harshness an EC can be tuned in one of the conventional meantone temperaments because many of the enharmonic substitutes are available for differenced tuning. Some fellow members, for instance Geoff Woof, will have more to say on this subject. As for me I would however be critical of the sounding of (open) fitfths (which I make a lot use of). Best wishes - Wolf

All, A few weeks ago, I drifted the following popular thread on tuning accuracy a bit by asking about how to tame my screaming Dipper for playing some Faan Harris boeremusiek. Chris Ghent made a comment that made an impression on me. Maybe a concertina with lesser quality reeds (hence less close tolerances, I suppose, and thus fewer high overtones) would be less screamy. And of course since there are lots of close thirds in the Boer playing that I am learning, perhaps adjust the temperament to something unequal in order to tame the third intervals. After that exchange, I realized that a 1950s Wheatstone that I purchased recently, with which I was initially unhappy, might just do the trick with a little reed work. It is not screechy, and would never do for Irish tunes....but is quite a bit mellower. It is a wooden ended 1951 or so CG 30 button Wheatstone, with a nice 8 fold bellows. I'm hoping Greg J can do his usual magic with a few slow reeds and squeaky bushings.... And so the question is what sort of unequal temperament to use to get the thirds sounding beautimous. Most Boer music of the 1930s used a lot of octaves, and then added a third interval note below the upper octave note to give that characteristic sound...thirds are everywhere. The most common keys that Faan plays in are C G and F, with G being perhaps most common followed by C, and an occasional foray into Bb. I have not seen any use of key of Eb in Faan's playing, as he had only a 30 button (modern players there use 40 as you may know). I don't think I shall ever play a lot of Bb, but one never knows what the future may bring. Bb is a mainstay of modern Boer players. I remember from a thread like this from 6 or 8 years ago that someone had a different suggestion than just using simple quarter common meantone. Was it Chris Ghent? And I also remember that Paul Groff had been doing some hands-on research on tunings of old Anglos. Any suggestions, tuning folks? With pointers to tuning charts, if I may be greedy? Many thanks! Dan

Thanks, Stephen and Geoff. I'm probably less worried about whether Faan had quarter comma or not (I believe Stephen's assertion that it was ET) than I am in getting a screamless third. So should I go for fifth comma meantone, in your opinion? And if I ask Greg to use that, will he know what I'm talking about ? (Because I don't!) The 'Chris' I remember in the old thread on temperament was Chris Allert, not Chris Ghent (I finally remembered that). The thread was about how Chris A was thinking that a just intonation would be nice, but tuned differently on the press than the draw to get the best chords in C and G. Apparently, according to Paul Groff's research (which has never been published, from what I can see; Chris was just quoting hearsay), the old time Anglo tuners did something like that. Here is the old thread, but Chris's examples are no longer linked. At the time, I was building a GD and looking to use that experimental temperament. I finished building that GD, but was never happy enough with it to finetune it. It makes a nice paperweight! I now leave tuning and building to the pros.... Dan

That is an interesting link Theo, thanks. I have been to his workshop, it was the first place I managed to obtain decent phosphor bronze piano wire. I'm sorry Dan, I have no expertise in this area and didn't start that thread. For some time I have been intending to tune a concertina to 1/4 comma meantone to find out by example what I cannot think out from hertz and cents. So many projects, so little time...

If major thirds are your thing, then quarter comma meantone makes all but one of them pure. I don't think any other tuning scheme does this. There is a really good, non-technical, summary here at Carey Beebe's Harpsichord site.

For the player who wishes to play some sort of mean-tone scale I would have thought that you might simply just ignore the Ab & D# buttons. After all if it was set up on a Crane or Jeffries Duet layout you would not have these options anyway. If you wished to play a meantone scale sharper than A or flatter than Bb this can be done by software transposition up or down a tone or two. For a Just scale there are real problems with the supertonic notes; but I explained how this might be overcome on a bisonoric instrument in "melodeon.net" a short while back. The same principle could be applied to an Anglo-like concertina, to play in 4 or maybe 5 related keys, giving every major and minor chord in the selected keys perfectly in tune.Then Midi transpose to any other set of related keys. Inventor.

That was my thought: my Beaumont 52b is 7" across, and if physical guts inside aren't an issue I don't see any problem wtih adding the extra dozen buttons along the fringes. It's not like we need to fit reeds and steel rods in there. I know some retro-fitted concertinas use the existing action, but if Dean's gets such good reviews for response, it seems like we can skip having trad action and have all the space we need, plus plenty of storage room for a cig lighter, pack of gum, and some prophylactics. Hot diggity-dang! This is why you're an inventor. Sure the Chinese bellows aren't fancy, but they're reasonably functional and inexpensive, and the body likewise functional just fine. If we could wrangle a deal with Wim to get a "blank" run from his supplier, that could cut out a whole lot of grunt labour that the skilled MIDI-smith won't need to muck with. Just having $20 bellows saves us, what, a good $200+ off the finished item? Are not all the CC instruments built on the same carcass? So it wouldn't even need to be a blank Elise, just a blank body in general (albeit maybe with the Anglo/Hayen handrest and strap to save expense) Yeah, if we're the only two I could see it not being a priority, but me personally I think we'd be missing out on some really intriguing MIDI possibilities for alt-tuning if we link buttons. Rendering an acoustic concertina into meantone, JI, etc. is a vast endeavor and not easily undone, so being able to do it with a mouse-click will be a huge advantage for the microtonal set. I'll also submit that being able to do microtonal options, or wide-but-feasible keyboard in general, might be an option which would help us sell this idea to non-concertina MIDI fans as a crossover instrument. Said folks would be less fixated on "make it 6.25" like an acoustic" and more interested in a breadth of keyboard possibilities. Plus with all the weight we're saving (and the fact that the Beaumont and Elise certainly aren't unplayable due to size) I think it'll be far less ponderous than folks reckon. I see Eric's point, but I think a flip-switch "capo" just doesn't have the possibilities that a slightly expanded keyboard gives us. Plus, with the expanded keyboard, a click-of-the-mouse capo change gets us yet more room to play with. If being tiny is the priority, I think the Paul Everett "gadget" dual MIDI Hayden keyboard is a good compromise. But that would (in theory) be a separate DIY project or different run from a small maker, with more compactness but fewer possibilities. Happy to be corrected, but I think this has serious crossover possibilities (in a small niche of music nerds, but all things being relative) that would help us plus up the number of orders needed to make this happen, and also get more folks interested in concertina overall. This is all quite exciting!

This is the same as Wakker H2 (except for this lonely, un-Hayden Eb/F) and I have this exact layout on my prototype. I chose this layout because at that time I had no idea what would be usefull. Now I think that Ab on the edges are not. Because on MIDI we can transpose, doubling accidentals is usefull only with meantone and just tunings and with a lot more doubled notes (an old square Bastari has enough buttons for this). So now I would skip them, and move them to low F and high Eb, or low D# on RH side and to low D# on the left. And this is mostly because we have 64 buttons to spend, we realy don't need doubled Eb/D# that much - except maybe for consistent edge-triads if someone needs Cmin and Bmaj in one fully-chromatic piece somewhere...

Dan, I suspect even without the possibilitty of a meantone tuning the Lachenal would not have sounded anything like as grating on those thirds. Without the tight clearances of a Dipper reed the higher partials would be less upfront in the sound. While I don't know about chords, with a single note it is the upper partials being discordant that creates the "screamer" sound. Perhaps that stack of partials on each note, already discordant with each other, is even more discordant with the stack on the other note. Time to bring on the sweet Lachenal sound...

Dan, G,C,F and Bb are not keys that are so far away from each other that some form of 'Warmer Thirds' temperament could have been utilised on a 30key instrument. The use of Guitar and Cello in the backing might also suggest that he was not needing to use Equal Temperament, once the guitarist was 'tuned' into a particular Key and Mode any great disonances might be minimal... and the Cellist could adjust note pitches easlily..... I use my 'Band' Concertina ( tuned in Meantone) sitting next to Accordions tuned in ET without adverse effects. I also use Ear Plugs when playing that instrument at home... it has a good voice... but not when 'on-stage'.... so the smaller room effect can be part of the cause of the pain. You say that Faan Harris was adding a note an octave below his high Thirds... this does have some mellowing affect, but ,perhaps, he was looking for a certain degree of dissonance to act as some sort of extra carrying power when playing for a dance, rather like the strong Musette tuning used on some accordions which, up close (to my ear) sounds dreadfull.