d.elliott

Well done Pete, you can't keep a good man down! Not sure about what you are describing about the leather patch however, nor its long term effectiveness Dave E

Doug, one of the frailties of the Lachenal action is that the lever arms can twist as well as pivot up and down, this is usually on cranked arms that are shaped around other keys on the action. To recover this wear resulting from twisting, I have soft soldered reclaimed bits off broken brass reed tongues to the worn flank of the pivoting portion of the arm, and re-shaped its pivot profile as necassary. I then dress out the wear from the pivot post window, finally dressing back the repaired arm so that its a snug fit in to the window. The old reed tongue material makes a superb bearing surface. This repair sounds more complicated than it is, and it works a treat. Dave E

Could we still see a picture of this new action? I'm interested because I thought most restorers were passing on concertinas which needed a lot of work on the action as being too expensive to repair, thats why this thread caught my attention. I have though read of restorers re-building the existing action where needed. Could you give us an idea how much an action replacement migth run? For example, say a standard sized 20 button Lachenal or similiar? I think this would be a good option for somebody who wants to Hot-Rod thier favorite box. In my experience it is rare to want to scrap off an instrument for action wear & tear problems, usually you can recover or replace with similar parts as needed. If the action is that bad, then its odds on that the rest of the instrument is shot too! I have NEVER scapped an ENGLISH MADE concertina for action problems You also need to separate in your mind resortation, repair and upgrade decisions. repair is about making something work again, restoration is about getting back as close to the as-build standard as possible, up-grade is a decision to change something from its as -build design to a different specification. If you are contemplating an up-grade then you should consider if the overall instrument standard and state of repair warrents the expense, and if the instrument design change will show the playing benefit anticipated, or if there are other factors influencing playability as well. Some other up-grade decisions I have been asked to consider are: fitting end plate bushes to un-bushed ends, changing bone keys to metal jacket keys, adding an air button to an English, altering venting on a single action Bass, adding or changing reeds on anglos. replacing/ fitting baffles. Fitting neck strap anchorages. Replacing four fold bellows with six or seven folds. Less obviously altering chamber stoppings to improve tone. Would you do all or any of the above to a brass reeded plain mahogany ended Lachenal 'people's model' instrument? Dave

Dave, thanks to your excellent book and kind advice here, as well as the generous good advice of Theo, Alan, and all who contributed to this discussion, I've satisfactorily repaired all the structural issues with my 1886 Lachenal...patched crack in the pan with a slip of veneer, fixed and smoothed the pad seats with plastic wood, and stabilized the pad on the action pan. I replaced a missing block under one reed pan and reglued on that must have been hanging by a thread ready to drop, and got the pans to seal together much better. There is a noticeable improvement in performance and a significant decrease in leakage as a result. I'm only waiting for a shipment of pads/valves and odd bits (including one missing end bolt that had been replaced by a much shorter and smaller woodscrew that only served to fill the hole and keep the pans vertically aligned), from Dave Leese to complete the overhaul...though I'm not quite ready to try a reed-tuning...it's not far enough off to justify the risk to an irreplaceable reed at this point. I even installed a larger breather pad in my chinese cheapie 31-button, such was my self-confidence boosted by all this good advice and successful execution. I think I'll probably want to make it even larger for better breathing. It used to wheeze like Darth Vader breathing through a straw, but now merely works like me during an asthma attack. A pad that is larger still will make it perform like a 7 litre Ford with a four barrel carburetor. Doug. Alas there is no way to turbocharge a pneumatic catapillar! It sounds like you have enjoyed the satisfaction of a job well done, whilst personally breaking new ground. I am glad for anyone who can start to realise this sort of success, and am sure that we are all proud for you. The secret is always in the 7 p's: Proper Planning Prevents Panic and Pi** Poor Performance. Think the job through, check on good practise, source your materials, sort your tools out, a visit to Church before hand, and to have a local hostelry sorted out for alchoholic celebrations on completion. congrats Dave E

What about those who play English System, do we vote or not? Dave

Holiday time! http://www.cottontown.org/page.cfm?languag...&pageID=806 In industrial areas ALL the mills/factories etc in one area would shut down at the same time for holidays, so the entire place would be off work. (This was certainly still happening in Scotland when i worked there about 15 years ago, Dundee had one fortnight, Glasgow the next etc. - called "Glasgow Fair" in that part of the world Certainly Sheffield had its spring bank (whitsuntide) shut down, I worked in the steelworks for many years as an engineer and made a fortune on overtime during those happy holidays. Whit parades and Whit sings held in local municiple parks were usually non-conformist led, heavily 'T' total and a tradition in the north of England. I have a collection of Whit sing singing programmes and hymn music from 1870 to 1890 from Sunday schools and chapel organisations in Sheffield and some drawn from Salford. These programmes contain words and music for such classics as: The sneezing song Merrily sped the mill Wheel The temperance Battle Cry Hurrah for the cause Temp'rance workers toil away no compromise canaan God bless the little Children Old 100th Also event programme goodies like: camp meetings temperance meetings Rechabites Good Templars rotary stereoscopic exhibition montgolfier balloons local chapel choir of 'several thousand' voices tea and parkin, ginger beer bands of music, decorated wagons, garlends, banners I would guess that this picture is part of a Whit Sing parade/ performance, and the band was a local concertina band like Mexborough etc, taking part in one of the social-religeous high lights of the calender. My own mother used to take part with her chapel upo to the late 1940's. What gets me is the fact that this was all organised by the working class Chapel network mostly without telephones, quite a few would be less than literate, and there we NO emails!!! how would we fare today? Dave

Hi Lyn, a personal aside, and off topic but Its good to see you join the forum! I hope you are managing Ok, Di sends her best wishes best regards Dave Elliott

Correct, and the grain of the action plate is perpendicular to the grain on the pad board, using the same terminology you use...and I'm not quite craftsman enough to want to pull the entire action off that action plate and cut a new one with parallel grain, then try to get the pivots and key guides and all the odd bits back in proper orientation. "Key guide ped hiles" I take to mean the holes in the action plate where the bottom peg on the bone buttons slides in...hadn't thought of that possibility, of glue getting in the guide holes, so thanks for pointing out that possibility, I'll take precautions to make sure the buttons don't get glued in. At present I'm contemplating using a slip of veneer or possibly two to help fill that gap and support the action plate while not trying to bend it significantly by clamping...it's a coarse grain softwood like pine and I'm concerned that it might snap parallel to the grain. The alignment and function of the action are currently not impaired by this gap, everything seems to be working properly and the concertina is playable, so I'm not inclined to do more than prevent the action plate from snapping by means of a removable repair so if further work is needed in the second 120 years of its life, someone can do it without having to try to undo epoxy or cyanoacrylate glues...I'm leaning toward hide glue and veneer strips to fill the gap. Make sense? Dear Mr P Puncher please remember, When you set up the action the top surface of the action plate becomes the setting datum. I would seek to clamp it flat, or at least as flat as possible. If the wood cracks a little, then I would deal with the crack. What is the amount of lift you have? Furthermore, have you considered the possibility of rails to take load off the pad board beneath? Oh yes: when is Ken or Paul going to fit a spell checker to this forum engine? 'ped hiles' indeed! an acute attack of digititus! PS I take it from your forum ID that you are a marksman, I once, many years ago competed in the Scottish Nationals, came 86th/ 500. My only entry into international level rifle competion. I was quite reasonable at long range paper punching, but don't tell the others. Dave

I have seen tis form of mounting on Jeffreys Anglos and Duets. My Lachenal Baritone bottom end reeds are surface mounted this way. On the big reeds I find that distortion in the very long reed frames can cause catching if tightened fully 'fore & aft'. I tighter the clamp end fully, and then the tip end, backing it back off a little if there is a problem. If needs-be I shim the tip end with glued paper between the underside of the frame and the reed pan. the only other draw backs tend to be that the inboard chambers are often too small for proper resonance and the reeds seem less powerful Dave E

"....before I dive into bushing a wooden ended Lachenal? I'm reluctant because it would involve making the holes a little bigger to accomodate the bushing felt. Right? I have found instructions on bushing buttons, but none specifically for bushing a wooden ended Lachenal that was never bushed in the first place. Advice much appreciated!" John, bushing felt is woven felt 0.8mm thick, cut 3mm wide on the bias. It was not common practise to bush bone buttons, I have assumed that this is due to adverse interaction between key and felt. I have a Rock Chidley 48k English System, which is bone keyed and bushed, and this does seem OK. The bushed hole in the wood is NOT PARALLEL, only @1mm is parallel on as the hole exits to the outer keyboard face. Look at the diagram in the Maintenance manual for details, the taper is quite fine and very important. I would not look at bushing the keyboard until all else has failed. Look at the tightness and quality of the key cross bushings first (particularly on short arms). Also check: 1. the pads are not fouling the action box inner wall 2. the Keys are not catching on adjacent springs 3. the springs are sliding easily under the action arms 4. that the keys are not set too high Dave E

Having skimmed this thread, I think we are talking about the action plate(or board) curling away from the pad board. I have met this befiore. The grain on the action plate should be parallel to the pad board grain. You need to glue it back flat, But also do something to equalize the stress in the action plate so it does not try to distort the padboard as well. I would use the inevitable Elmer's White Glue (PVA) , poking as much in as possible into the sandwich of the pad & action boards with a cocktail stick, and then clamp it firmly with 'G' clamps to dry for 24 hrs. I would then glue a couple of 'rails' to the surface of the action plate, mounted at 90 degrees to the grain of the action plate; giving myself the maximum possible height above the action plate, and the best location to avoid fouling the action. Anything to take flattening stressess away from the pad board. You may fing that glue is extruded into the key guide ped hiles from the action/ pad board sandwich. Let it dry and 'ream-drill the holes clear later. Dave E

I hadn't heard that before, and it doesn't seem to be the case with either my Æola cello bass or my Lachenal "contra" bass (down to the G below the cello). But maybe that's because the reeds are set well? The Lachenal was restored by Colin Dipper some years ago, and the Æola was touched up more recently by Steve Dickinson. In fact, there can be a bit of roughness on the startup of the lowest notes of each -- especially at limited bellows pressure, -- but it doesn't seem to be greater when changing bellows direction on the same note than when simply going from note to note without changing bellows direction. Jim, I suspect that this is the eternal problem of getting the big valves to react quickly to prevent beating between reads on both sides of the reed pan, I am sure I can remember you saying your Bass is double acting? I don't think that there has ever been a working design for a single acting Anglo!!!!!!! Dave E

Frank has stated what I was getting at. If dirt can be blown off, it would not be there. It usually sticks as a result of oily and greasy deposits settling on the reed from other airbourne materials, tobacco smoke coal fires etc. It needs to be moved by wiping or similar. Hence my question: 'Do you have a general reed cleaning issue?' Now taking another, and probably contravertial tack. I am getting increasingly concerned at some of the advice being given out on this forum; (like the use of compressed air and some of the other suggestions on other threads). Good ideas are great, all ideas are welcome, and I don't want to discourage the enthusiastic creativity that clearly abounds. But if a suggestion is just that:- a suggestion, and it has not been tried and tested then this should be made clear by the writer. Less experienced people may take these ideas as gospel and put them into effect, and that worries me. Dave

Ennistraveler, Why do you want to blow dust off the reed, that happens, with a bl**dy good shake every time you play the note!? Do you have a specific problem, or symptom you would like to share with us? You may even remain un-named and your privacy respected. Do you have a general reed cleaning issue? Dave E

Stuart, The bottom end of double acting big reed instruments are always difficult to set up, so as to make them as responsive as the mid and upper ranges of the instrument. A lot of the problem is in the valves, but this is the easiest aspect to overcome. The reeds, however are what they are, big with corrsponding air demands, particularly to 'start' them. To play 'ppp' on the lower notes needs quite a bit of experience and technique but it is certainly possible to get pretty close. Dave

I always advise keeping instruments in their cases, with bellows firmly compressed for all the reason's that Geoff Crabb states, but also to make sure that the intrument is stood with its bellows axis horizontal to prevent valve curling. The old hexagonal boxes tend to be left stood up with the instrument on its end, not a good idea! I am with you on this point Geoff! Dave

I know where Rich is comming from, and there can be a resultant different in pitch, usually quite marginal. Normally its the change in playing characteristic which is immediately noticeable. You can probably get away with re-valving and just cleaning the reeds, but don't be suprised if there some small changes or discrepancies become noticeable after a re-valve. Actually they may well have been pre-existing, but masked by valve effects. Sorry its not a clean cut answer Dave

Yes, but many boxes for English sytem instrumentd have a groove cut for the thumbstrap screw head to pass down, so you cannot invert the instrument in its hexagonal box Dave E

Don, Very brave for the following reasons: 1. It may not have been warpage that was the full cause of the problem 2. the reed pan chamber walls and gaskets are all hydroscopic and are also held together by water soluble glues 3. as an aerospace engineer we had to bench all machined components for dressing and certain stress management purposes, but as you know, good old wood does not work the same way as metalic materials 4. you may well have re-introduced an in-stability back into a stable if warped structure. as I said very, very, very brave; I am glad ir worked out for you. I would have adjusted pan height blocks and chamber gasket packings to make the system work Dave E

Firstly the spruce 'covers' as yiu called them are sound baffles intended to absorb harmonics and generally mellow the tone of the instrument. Paul, Secondly, please don't stick ANYTHING onto the valves, you will get all sorts of non-sounding notes, and variations in valve rate s giving different operating pressures. Just replace the valves, it is so easy to do Dave E

I find 'Capella' a very good and professional low(ish) cost package Dave E

The only thing I'll disagree with there is your editorializing. "Wrong" fingering and "severe mental gymnastics" are not at all what I experience. The pattern of the "English" keyboard is so completely consistent that octave transposition is almost trivial (there's my own bit of editorializing ). Jim, In my circles and experience, the 'G' bass is as per the treble, transposed down two octaves, AKA 'full Bass', conta-bass if you like- but I always understood that this was name of the third bass format. The 'C' bass is as per the Treble, transposed down by two octaves, but missing the two lower notes on each side, plus accidentals. eight keys in all. So as you say, the lowest note is in the 'middle 'C'' position. As to baritones, to me the baritone is a single octave transposing instrument, and thus be easily played in a band setting, when I (and others) have tried to play a treble extended down to baritone in that context, we all struggled. Yet playing it as a treble instrument and using its extended range for chords was relatively straightforward. I know someone who bought a treble ext. to Baritone thinking to play it as both a baritone and a treble and it was not successful. Hence my warnings to others about the difficulty factor, or pehaps its just not being such an exeptional player myself. I think that the baritones extended up are quite rare, but I have seen several trebles extended down, although neither are exactly common by anyone's stretch of the imagination, hence the interest. Dave E

The only thing I'll disagree with there is your editorializing. "Wrong" fingering and "severe mental gymnastics" are not at all what I experience. The pattern of the "English" keyboard is so completely consistent that octave transposition is almost trivial (there's my own bit of editorializing ). Jim, In my circles and experience, the 'G' bass is as per the treble, transposed down two octaves, AKA 'full Bass', conta-bass if you like- but I always understood that this was name of the third bass format. The 'C' bass is as per the Treble, transposed down by two octaves, but missing the two lower notes on each side, plus accidentals. eight keys in all. So as you say, the lowest note is in the 'middle 'C'' position. As to baritones, to me the baritone is a single octave transposing instrument, and thus be easily played in a band setting, when I (and others) have tried to play a treble extended down to baritone in that context, we all struggled. Yet playing it as a treble instrument and using its extended range for chords was relatively straightforward. I know someone who bought a treble ext. to Baritone thinking to play it as both a baritone and a treble and it was not successful. Hence my warnings to others about the difficulty factor, or pehaps its just not being such an exeptional player myself. I think that the baritones extended up are quite rare, but I have seen several trebles extended down, although neither are exactly common by anyone's stretch of the imagination, hence the interest. Dave E

Just think about your warrenty before you gat too brave, talk to the vendor first Dave E

Jim, there are two forms of the Bass compass. the 'C' or 'Cello bass' as you have described, this is a transposing instrument transposing the Tenor instrument by one octave. The other is the 'G' bass, AKA as the 'full bass' which transforms the Baritone by a full octave, or the standard treble by two full octaves. The baritones and bass instruments both transpose the standard treble fingering by one or two octaves, whereas the piccolo transforms the treble up by an actave. Interestingly there are bartitones extended to treble which have the same compass as the treble extended to baritone. The former is a transposed instrument and the fingering is entirely 'wrong' in the treble range, whilst the latter is an extended, but not transposing instrument, which cannot be played as say a baritone band instrument without engaging in sever mental gymnatics. My own bas is a 'G' bass and its highest note is middle 'C' Its actually quite good for signalling ships at the seaside. Dave E