Out Of Tune Chords

[Perry Werner]

Howdy:

 

I was practicing away last evening attempting to work out an accompaniment for a song I am working on when I noticed a few of the three note chords I was experimenting with sounding odd and dissonant.

 

These were all triads in their root position.

 

Anyway after hearing the offending cluster of notes, I played each of the offending chords broken up as foillows.

The thirds sounded fine.

Then the fifth sounded fine.

Then when I put all three notes together, I heard the offending cluster which was not very harmonious. Close but not right on the mark.

Something is definitely going on here but I cannot figure out what it might be.

Are the reeds not in "synch" when the three buttons are depressed?

Maybe someone can clue me into what I am guessing is a somewhat common occurance.

All help and advice is appreciated deeply.

 

Best,

Perry Werner

[m3838]

As many say, equal tempered tuning may not sound well in close intervals, so your root chords are not 'supposed' to sound good to begin with. Then you may have one of the reeds be just a tiny bit off - and you have what you have. But don't depspare. Instead of playing long chords, that don't sound well on concertina even with perfect tuning, try to hit the chord and then drop the sound to wisper, or play it short. You'll have the rhythm and the chord will be somewhat right.

The freaking pitch depends on pressure, or the way you depress the buttons, on condition of your valves/pads, on acoustic surrounding. So if your chords sound fine when played quietly, they may "sea-lionize" on higher volumes, or your valves may flutter on very low volumes, interfering with other notes.

[Doug Barr]

Perry I agree with m3838??? It is the equal temperment tuning that is giving you the harsh sounds I hate the sounds on Maj. 3rds on my box Try a different inversion(voicing) of the chord...spread some of the notes out it will sound better good luck Doug

[David Barnert]

I also agree with the above, and had thought it through even before I read past your title. Try playing the root and 5th in the lower octave and the 3rd in a higher octave.

[Perry Werner]

Thanks fellows (& gals?)

Good advice and something I kind of already figured out.

The voicing business that is.

Just wondering why some triads sound just fine and some a bit funky when earlier (weeks ago) I did not notice this. It could also be the dryness where I practice knocking my tuning out a bit.

I'm guessing it's mostly a reed out-of-whack related problem which is kind of what I figured, though I'm guessing the rest of you are also correct with the explanation about equal temperment.

I'll have it checked if it continues, but for now will consider the consensus of your advices.

Thanks,

Perry

Edited February 21, 2007 by Perry Werner

[Ivan Viehoff]

Close chords sound fine on an even-tempered piano and an even-tempered pipe-organ and an even-tempered electronic keyboard and an even-tempered orchestra. But they can be really odd on a concertina. You can get some really nasty sounds that seem horribly out of tune.

 

So I'm not convinced it is the temperament that makes the chord sound wrong, although maybe it would go away, in the specific circumstance of a concertina, if the intervals were correctly related - although maybe then you would get some resonance problems. There definitely seems to be some kind of mechanical/vibrational/acoustic/interference thing going on inside a concertina when you play certain multiple combinations of notes. But, as someone above said, it seems to be more a problem when you play the chord on its own, loudly, in isolation. Approach them in the right way in context and the problem often seems to go away.

[Robin Harrison]

If you decide to have it retuned , Perry, consider just tuning. There are people who contribute to this site who can help you.It's not a major sounding difference but will sweeten the offensive interval. Robin

[Guest Peter Laban]

Here you'll find a lengthy and at times interesting discussion of the issue

[bellowbelle]

Thanks fellows (& gals?)

Good advice and something I kind of already figured out.

The voicing business that is.

Just wondering why some triads sound just fine and some a bit funky when earlier (weeks ago) I did not notice this. It could also be the dryness where I practice knocking my tuning out a bit.

I'm guessing it's mostly a reed out-of-whack related problem which is kind of what I figured, though I'm guessing the rest of you are also correct with the explanation about equal temperment.

I'll have it checked if it continues, but for now will consider the consensus of your advices.

Thanks,

Perry

 

For sure, the dry air is a monster. As I sit here tonight (in my husband's area, not my own where I have about 4 room humidifiers), I'm even holding my nose shut and breathing through my mouth, my nose hurts so much from the dryness!! I use so much hand cream and so many oils, I've wondered how much of it has accumulated inside my concertina -- along with all the pine tree pollen and other flying dust around here. (No vines growing out of the concertina yet, though...)

 

A few thoughts...

 

My concertina, I noticed, went almost totally BACK into tune, after it (finally) snowed recently. Weird, huh? It had been slightly off. Of course, the 'Mr. Wizard' (yay!) Bob Snope did fix it up quite a bit, too, when I was at the Button Box recently for a different small repair (wasn't there for fine-tuning, in particular).

 

I usually keep my concertina by a humidifier running on low for at least part of the day/night, and I keep a cloth over it for a dust-cover. (I don't like to bother with the concertina case all the time.) Maybe the humidifier is a good idea -- maybe it wouldn't have 'bounced back' if I didn't keep one running. (It's not an option -- I can't stand to go without the humidifiers.)

 

I also wanted to mention that, if you really want to make the most of chords on your concertina, you might want to check out the foot bass -- see Harry Geuns' website. Using a foot bass with the concertina REALLY adds a whole new dimension. I don't have too 'moosh' together all the tones in a Major-7th chord on the concertina -- the foot bass helps spread out the tones and adds clarity. It's an interesting critter, I'm finding...and I'm still getting used to playing it, too.

 

Oh, and the foot bass is such a nice workout, for me, that I finally did get rid of the exercise bike! I've kept my edge-trainer, though -- I like that. Just never liked the exercise bike. Foot bass more fun.

 

edit added to fix spelling of Harry Geuns!

Edited February 25, 2007 by bellowbelle

[Christian Husmann]

Howdy:

 

I was practicing away last evening attempting to work out an accompaniment for a song I am working on when I noticed a few of the three note chords I was experimenting with sounding odd and dissonant.

 

These were all triads in their root position.

 

Anyway after hearing the offending cluster of notes, I played each of the offending chords broken up as foillows.

The thirds sounded fine.

Then the fifth sounded fine.

Then when I put all three notes together, I heard the offending cluster which was not very harmonious. Close but not right on the mark.

Something is definitely going on here but I cannot figure out what it might be.

Are the reeds not in "synch" when the three buttons are depressed?

Maybe someone can clue me into what I am guessing is a somewhat common occurance.

All help and advice is appreciated deeply.

 

Best,

Perry Werner

 

Hello, some other idea here:

Please consider that a reed doesn´t produce a "proper" sound like an (electric) organ, it´s more or less like a bell, meaning every single note is put together by different high and deep sounds. So one perfectly tuned concertina may play well with another, but only on the push or pull. Or well with one and not with another. Acutally you never know. As well the resonance of the instrument is playing a role - a reed may sound outside the instrument perfect but put in again out of tune.

 

have a good sunday

Christian

[Dana Johnson]

A number of things to consider here. First being that your concertina may not really be in tune. A fair amount of out of tune-ness. is generally tolerable and may not be noticed when notes are played singly. but together they have the chance to be compared to something and beat unpleasantly. Even a small amount of out of tune-ness can be a problem in chord if another note in the chord is out of tune a little in the opposite direction. You mention that the thirds sound fine. In equal temperament, the thirds are not well tuned while the octaves and fifths are, and the fourths are nearly as good. You may also have a loose definition of "fine" possibly not having heard a true third in all it's glory. Other people have covered the temperament issue so I won't bother, except to say that part of the reason for equal temperament is not only to make playing in all keys equally unfortunate, but also to allow people to play with different people without having to re tune for them. "Just" Tuning is great for a limited number of keys (you specify ) but will sound awful when playing with an equal tempered instrument. If you play alone or with a non fixed pitch instrument (violins, flutes, oboes etc. )you may get along splendidly.

 

Some of the other equal tempered instruments who's chords sound good do so because they actually play more than one note at a time. Pianos have pairs and triplets of strings tuned almost to the same note. One flat of pitch , one on pitch and one sharp. On a piano this in needed to give the required volume and allow the string to sustain for a time. It also means that the overall sound is tolerant of a fair amount of dissonance since it is hidden in the natural beat of the strings. and becomes sound color rather than grating dissonance. Instruments that produce large numbers of overtones also cover up dissonance fairly effectively. (strings, many but not all organ stops) Purer sounding instruments must be much better in tune not to grate. Concertinas vary widely in the overtones they produce. Mine are strong in the third harmonic with fewer high overtones. Others may cover a different range with stronger octave harmonics ( especially in the low notes ) and strong fourth and sixth harmonics. These may not be exactly in tune with the fundamental, and if they are strong ( and the lower ones often are even stronger than the fundamental ) the overtones can beat unpleasantly even if the fundamental notes of the chord are perfectly (beat free) in tune.

 

Regarding tuning and weather. when a reed is tuned while it it snuggly held ( the proper state of it's existence ) when it becomes a little loose, say in a dry time in the winter, it will tend to play flat even just a few cents. that is enough to throw off a given tuning. Being held tighter won't sharpen it appreciably , but risks pinching the reed shut.

 

If you play chords a lot, you might consider gently nudging ( or geting your concertina tuner to do this ) a few particularly poor sounding notes a few cents in a direction that will smooth things up a bit. I tune my B's and F#'s a couple cents flat ( from their equal tempered value ) on my concertinas to help smooth some of the chords commonly found in Irish music. It's not enough to notice anything in a melody but improves the accompaniment.

Dana

Edited February 26, 2007 by Dana Johnson

[jerry]

Could someone tell me the best way to tune a concertna? Jerry

A number of things to consider here. First being that your concertina may not really be in tune. A fair amount of out of tune-ness. is generally tolerable and may not be noticed when notes are played singly. but together they have the chance to be compared to something and beat unpleasantly. Even a small amount of out of tune-ness can be a problem in chord if another note in the chord is out of tune a little in the opposite direction. You mention that the thirds sound fine. In equal temperament, the thirds are not well tuned while the octaves and fifths are, and the fourths are nearly as good. You may also have a loose definition of "fine" possibly not having heard a true third in all it's glory. Other people have covered the temperament issue so I won't bother, except to say that part of the reason for equal temperament is not only to make playing in all keys equally unfortunate, but also to allow people to play with different people without having to re tune for them. "Just" Tuning is great for a limited number of keys (you specify ) but will sound awful when playing with an equal tempered instrument. If you play alone or with a non fixed pitch instrument (violins, flutes, oboes etc. )you may get along splendidly.

 

Some of the other equal tempered instruments who's chords sound good do so because they actually play more than one note at a time. Pianos have pairs and triplets of strings tuned almost to the same note. One flat of pitch , one on pitch and one sharp. On a piano this in needed to give the required volume and allow the string to sustain for a time. It also means that the overall sound is tolerant of a fair amount of dissonance since it is hidden in the natural beat of the strings. and becomes sound color rather than grating dissonance. Instruments that produce large numbers of overtones also cover up dissonance fairly effectively. (strings, many but not all organ stops) Purer sounding instruments must be much better in tune not to grate. Concertinas vary widely in the overtones they produce. Mine are strong in the third harmonic with fewer high overtones. Others may cover a different range with stronger octave harmonics ( especially in the low notes ) and strong fourth and sixth harmonics. These may not be exactly in tune with the fundamental, and if they are strong ( and the lower ones often are even stronger than the fundamental ) the overtones can beat unpleasantly even if the fundamental notes of the chord are perfectly (beat free) in tune.

 

Regarding tuning and weather. when a reed is tuned while it it snuggly held ( the proper state of it's existence ) when it becomes a little loose, say in a dry time in the winter, it will tend to play flat even just a few cents. that is enough to throw off a given tuning. Being held tighter won't sharpen it appreciably , but risks pinching the reed shut.

 

If you play chords a lot, you might consider gently nudging ( or geting your concertina tuner to do this ) a few particularly poor sounding notes a few cents in a direction that will smooth things up a bit. I tune my B's and F#'s a couple cents flat ( from their equal tempered value ) on my concertinas to help smooth some of the chords commonly found in Irish music. It's not enough to notice anything in a melody but improves the accompaniment.

Dana

[Christian Husmann]

Could someone tell me the best way to tune a concertna? Jerry

 

Hello Jerry,

 

especially owning an old instrument I would consider having it done by someone who knows.

Causing damage to the reeds or the inside of the box can produce a far more expensive price

for repairs than only having it tuned.

I wouldn´d dare to touch mine...

 

Greetings

Christian

[Ironframe]

Some of the other equal tempered instruments who's chords sound good do so because they actually play more than one note at a time. Pianos have pairs and triplets of strings tuned almost to the same note. One flat of pitch , one on pitch and one sharp. On a piano this in needed to give the required volume and allow the string to sustain for a time. It also means that the overall sound is tolerant of a fair amount of dissonance since it is hidden in the natural beat of the strings. and becomes sound color rather than grating dissonance.Dana

 

Sorry to disagree Dana but this is simply not true. The red highlighted sentence is what one would do to a piano if the customer requested it tuning 'honky-tonk'. EVERY unison, be it a pair in the tenor or three-strings in the treble are tuned as near exactly together as is possible - mostly indistinguishable from each other. The 2+3 strings are there to give volume since the hammer widths are identical all the way from A0 (single strings) to C88 (trichord) and so the strings of each note are tuned the same - which is why it's called a unison. The damper allows sustain either for only as long as the key is pressed (subject to natural decay) or with the addition of the sustain pedal which allows the decay to be prolonged as other strings through the piano will resonate sympathetically.

 

Paul

[Pete Dunk]

I want to throw a spanner in the works here with a really wacky idea, I'm sure I'm going to get shot down in flames because it's based on a wild theory with no real science as such behind it at all.

 

I've read lots of things on here about the way that reeds produce sounds and very interesting it is too. Given that there is only one source of air, the bellows, and one reed per note, is it possible that the frequency of a reeds' movement might affect the airflow through another reed? Is it also possible that notes at certain intervals within the same octave interfere with the frequency and more importantly the harmonics of other notes?

 

Bellows pressure is important too, it's very easy to blow a note fractionally sharp or flat on a woodwind instrument by increasing or decreasing the volume of air. To me it seems obvious that if you pump a given volume of air through three reeds at the same time, any significant increase or decrease in bellows pressure might cause the notes to go slightly sharp or flat but not at the same rate due to the difference in length and physical mass of the reeds.

 

The hypothesis in a nutshell is that a reed can cancel out certain harmonic frequencies in another reed and perhaps cause that reed to to vibrate at a slightly different frequency by causing fluctuations in the airflow from the bellows; this is not dissimilar to the out of phase effect caused by incorrectly wired stereo speakers cancelling each other out and destroying the stereo image. This is also reinforced by the fact that inverting the chord and using a note from a different octave reduces the effect because the standing waves of the notes involved are moved further apart.

 

Like I said at the beginning this is purely a theory but it may open an interesting debate.

[Hooves]

I want to throw a spanner in the works here with a really wacky idea, I'm sure I'm going to get shot down in flames because it's based on a wild theory with no real science as such behind it at all.

 

I've read lots of things on here about the way that reeds produce sounds and very interesting it is too. Given that there is only one source of air, the bellows, and one reed per note, is it possible that the frequency of a reeds' movement might affect the airflow through another reed? Is it also possible that notes at certain intervals within the same octave interfere with the frequency and more importantly the harmonics of other notes?

 

Bellows pressure is important too, it's very easy to blow a note fractionally sharp or flat on a woodwind instrument by increasing or decreasing the volume of air. To me it seems obvious that if you pump a given volume of air through three reeds at the same time, any significant increase or decrease in bellows pressure might cause the notes to go slightly sharp or flat but not at the same rate due to the difference in length and physical mass of the reeds.

 

The hypothesis in a nutshell is that a reed can cancel out certain harmonic frequencies in another reed and perhaps cause that reed to to vibrate at a slightly different frequency by causing fluctuations in the airflow from the bellows; this is not dissimilar to the out of phase effect caused by incorrectly wired stereo speakers cancelling each other out and destroying the stereo image. This is also reinforced by the fact that inverting the chord and using a note from a different octave reduces the effect because the standing waves of the notes involved are moved further apart.

 

Like I said at the beginning this is purely a theory but it may open an interesting debate.

 

 

It sounds like a good theory: I was wondering the same thing when I started reading this thread, could the reeds affect each others pitch during play.

 

However the fact it was mentioned the tina sounded "O.K." after a while seems to contradict this theory somewhat, as the chord sounds good one day a not the next.

 

Some people don't like the sound of a pure triad arranged root to fifth lowest to highest, and when you play on a piano it seems to me after a while you get tired of hearing that vanilla triad. In fact any interval played continously gets wearisome (sit down and play only fifths for about 15 minutes, or play only basic 3 note chords on piano, gets old fast)

 

Although I admit being a guitar player I do like my fiths and fourths.

 

I can not speak for all players and theres always exceptions, but I believe most peple these days are used to hearing more complex harmony then simple 3 note triads. If they are present, theres plenty of other notes being played to distract your ear from hearing that basic triad.