Concertina Choice For American "old-time" Music

[Cliff McIntosh]

I'm an amateur fiddle player who is interested in exploring the concertina to play in American "old-time" music. As points of reference, think "8th of January," "Mississippi Sawyer," "Soldier's Joy," "Old Joe Clark," "Cumberland Gap," and those sorts of things -- things that might get played at a square dance.

 

Given the type of music I am interested in playing, I have a couple of questions about choice of instrument.

 

(1) Is there a particular sort of concertina that works better for this sort of music? By this I mean to ask whether an Anglo or English or duet works better with this sort of music. Does it matter? If you know of folks who do this sort of music on a concertina and know what type of concertina they use, I'd love to hear what you know.

 

If I were to use an Anglo concertina, and most of the tunes I play are in D, A and G, am I better off getting an instrument in D/G rather than the more common C/G tuning? What do I need to think about when making a choice?

 

Thanks,

 

Cliff

[Jim Besser]

I'm an amateur fiddle player who is interested in exploring the concertina to play in American "old-time" music. As points of reference, think "8th of January," "Mississippi Sawyer," "Soldier's Joy," "Old Joe Clark," "Cumberland Gap," and those sorts of things -- things that might get played at a square dance.

 

(1) Is there a particular sort of concertina that works better for this sort of music? By this I mean to ask whether an Anglo or English or duet works better with this sort of music. Does it matter? If you know of folks who do this sort of music on a concertina and know what type of concertina they use, I'd love to hear what you know.

 

If I were to use an Anglo concertina, and most of the tunes I play are in D, A and G, am I better off getting an instrument in D/G rather than the more common C/G tuning? What do I need to think about when making a choice?

 

 

Well, I play all those tunes and love playing oldtime for dances and at jams. I play Anglo, but I know there are others who are just as happy with English. What matters most is the system that makes the most sense to you; for me, Anglo always seemed logical and straightforward and English is a complete mystery, but I know people who have the opposite reaction.

 

I have both a C/G and a D/g. THe latter , in my opinion, is clearly better if you plan to play both melody and chords/bass runs etc. for these tunes.

 

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of concertinists who have recorded oldtime tunes. Jody Kruskal has done a few onAnglo on his Grand Picnic CD. There's a contra dance band called Old Sod that, I believe, has an English player, and that might give you an idea of what that sounds like for the kind of music you're interested in. Wild Asparagus (again, English) does some old time tunes.

 

Sorry not to be more definitive, but there is no "which is better" answer.

[Mark Evans]

Sorry not to be more definitive, but there is no "which is better" answer.

 

I would agree.

 

You are fortunate that in most Old Time circles there is no set preference either way. I play English and have found it well suited to the task.

 

Spend a bit of time with each system. One will call to you in the still of the night (to quote Cole Porter), that will be your muse...follow her.

 

Post script: You can click on the second link below my signature. I have two unedited cuts from a recording project with Leo Leblanc. They are treatments that draw from old time and Acadian, the instrument is a Morse Albion engish. Works fine. I find it particularlly useful when encountering a fiddler or more often a banjo player who plays a standard fiddle tune in a not so standard key. Transposition on the English is not so bad I find. There I go, plugging one over the other.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Mark Evans

[Dan Worrall]

Bertram Levy spent a fair amount of time recording old time tunes back in the 1980's. Sageflower Suite and First Generation are two albums (LPs) that featured his playing of old time American (and also a few Irish and Eastern European) tunes on the anglo; you can find them from time to time on Ebay. We don't hear so much from him now, as he is currently playing tangos on bandoneon. Before his anglo period, back in the 60s, he played old time tunes on banjo with the Hollow Rock String Band, one of the early trendsetters for the revival of this genre. I asked him once for his recommendations on playing American old time music on the anglo. His main recommendation was that you get an instrument that is no louder than the strings in a string band, so as not to drown them out. In this respect, he liked playing his Bastari better than his Jeffries instruments when playing in a group.

[Jody Kruskal]

Is there a particular sort of concertina that works better for this sort of music?

 

If I were to use an Anglo concertina, and most of the tunes I play are in D, A and G, am I better off getting an instrument in D/G rather than the more common C/G tuning?

Thanks,

 

Cliff

 

Hi Cliff,

 

I play old time on my G/D Anglo all the time, and any time. I don’t play those other kinds of concertina but in my style of playing, G/D is best for all fiddle traditions as far as I can tell. You could probably play the melody on a c/g for most tunes, but what makes the Anglo concertina so cool for old time and other dance traditions is all the double stops and chords and rhythmic stuff that it can do along with the melody. Listen to my Naked Concertina and Grand Picnic cds at 

 

http://cdbaby.com/cd/jodykruskal 

https://www.cdbaby.com/cd/grandpicnic 

 

and you can hear what I'm talking about.

 

The reason that C/G is more common is that the Irish players drive the market these days and for them, that range is the best. They play single line with ornaments and only a rare harmony note. My playing has the melody mostly in the right hand and the harmony mostly in the left, harmonic playing, more like the English Anglo concertina tradition, John Kirkpatrick, William Kimber et al. On a G/D the right hand goes up to a high D, well above first position, what most fiddle players stay in.

 

Here is a great old time tune on the Anglo, Big Sciote, played on my Dipper G/D with the honking bass notes.

 

Jody

[Daniel Hersh]

I play lots of old-timey music too, and I play a C/G Anglo. I haven't found playing in D or A to be particularly problematic. Many old-time tunes in A are in what banjo players call A modal, with a flatted seventh (G natural rather than G sharp) which makes playing on a C/G to be less difficult.

 

It's certainly possible that G/D would be easier, as others have said, but a C/G will work too. I believe that Bertram Levy, mentioned in an earlier post and an inspiration to me when I was starting out on this, played a C/G Anglo when he was playing this kind of music on concertina.

 

Daniel

 

 

I'm an amateur fiddle player who is interested in exploring the concertina to play in American "old-time" music. As points of reference, think "8th of January," "Mississippi Sawyer," "Soldier's Joy," "Old Joe Clark," "Cumberland Gap," and those sorts of things -- things that might get played at a square dance.

 

Given the type of music I am interested in playing, I have a couple of questions about choice of instrument.

 

(1) Is there a particular sort of concertina that works better for this sort of music? By this I mean to ask whether an Anglo or English or duet works better with this sort of music. Does it matter? If you know of folks who do this sort of music on a concertina and know what type of concertina they use, I'd love to hear what you know.

 

If I were to use an Anglo concertina, and most of the tunes I play are in D, A and G, am I better off getting an instrument in D/G rather than the more common C/G tuning? What do I need to think about when making a choice?

 

Thanks,

 

Cliff

[Chris Allert]

the c/g anglo is most common in irish music, and i'd think it would be fairly easy to adapt the same techniques irish musicians use to american music since these two traditions are similar in so many ways. if you're new to the instrument, i'd recommend going to one of noel hill's workshops to help you get started. you should have an easy time adapting what you learn there to playing american tunes. as far as i know, noel hill's workshop is the most intensive crash course on the concertina you can get in north america, and for that reason alone, a 30-button c/g anglo is a good choice for a first instrument. with other systems of concertinas, or anglos in other keys, it's more difficult to find instruction. unfortunately high-quality c/g anglos are very expensive since they are in such demand. for even a mid-range instrument, you'll have to wait a few months to a year. so deciding which system to learn is a trade-off between availability of instruments and availability of instruction.

 

if you decide to play anglo, i would wait a few months until the concertina connection starts selling their starter anglo. (unless you have a lot of money to spend on an instrument you may not stick with). also, all the makers of mid-range instruments mentioned in the buyers guide on this site are good, but as i said, you'll have to wait a few months to a year for any of them and you'll spend $1500 - $2500. in contrast, the new anglo model from the concertina connection will be around $300 (if priced like their "jackie" english model). so you may as well wait until this model is available. here is a link to wim wakker's recent post about this instrument (which is called the "rochelle" model):

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php...indpost&p=32361

[Ken_Coles]

I'm an amateur fiddle player who is interested in exploring the concertina to play in American "old-time" music. As points of reference, think "8th of January," "Mississippi Sawyer," "Soldier's Joy," "Old Joe Clark," "Cumberland Gap," and those sorts of things -- things that might get played at a square dance.

 

Given the type of music I am interested in playing, I have a couple of questions about choice of instrument.

 

These are exactly the tunes I started with as a beginner in 1992 at my local tune and song jam society. I used a 2-row C/G anglo that cost me 50 dollars (even played it in a club once). I did/do mostly melody, but even on a 2-row there are harmonizing notes you can throw in, sort of like the way some English players do it. I have an English now also, but haven't tried old-time on it; I'm using it to play Irish. (are we lost yet? I am)

 

As others note, it probably doesn't matter. See the dozens of threads you can search for here (at least 2 a week as long as I can remember) where someone new asks, "Which system should I play?" and all my friends here give their FAA (Frequently answered answers).

 

Ken

[JimLucas]

See the dozens of threads you can search for here (at least 2 a week as long as I can remember) where someone new asks, "Which system should I play?" and all my friends here give their FAA (Frequently answered answers).

And their two subcategories:

... FIA - Frequently Ignored Answers

... FDA - Frequently Disputed Answers

 

..................................

[Larry Stout]

Part of the reason I took up English Concertina was from the experience of dancing (both contra and ECD) to bands that included an EC. I don't think I've ever danced to a band with an anglo. I think the player that introduced me to the instrument was Mike Voss (from Houston). At least some of the music played for contras comes from the Old Time tradition.

 

As a fiddler (I've played for over 50 years) I found the English Concertina much more intuitive than the Anglo. I couldn't get used to different notes on push and pull and I didn't have too much trouble adjusting to the alternating hands that occur in fingering scales on an EC. I did have some trouble getting used to the stereo effect with every other note coming to a different ear: as a fiddler everything comes in mono, mostly to the left ear. Chords don't come easily to my left hand; they come to me as double stops or triple stops. Perhaps if I were coming from guitar or piano the accompaniment on the left, melody on right of English style Anglo playing would seem more natural. Being able to control phrasing in the bellows work independent of the note being played also is closer to the way a fiddler thinks of bowing.

 

Take a look at the thread on the SW squeeze in. I think that they are planning to play some Old Time music and perhaps some Bluegrass as well.

 

Larry

[Mark Evans]

I did have some trouble getting used to the stereo effect with every other note coming to a different ear: as a fiddler everything comes in mono, mostly to the left ear. Chords don't come easily to my left hand; they come to me as double stops or triple stops. Perhaps if I were coming from guitar or piano the accompaniment on the left, melody on right of English style Anglo playing would seem more natural. Being able to control phrasing in the bellows work independent of the note being played also is closer to the way a fiddler thinks of bowing.

 

Larry

 

 

I never notice the stereo effect. Perhaps the damaged hearing in my left ear from the years spent with a chainsaw in my mitts equals the effect out .

 

Very interesting your observations about the fiddle side of things. I've always been attuned to the fiddle line and create my ornaments from their emblishments as much as possible. My chording style is taken directly from the mandolin off-beat chop. The bowing remark certainly resonates with me.

 

Ken, sorry about gnawin' on my tired ole bone each time this subject comes up, but like my bulldog I keep thinking that just a few more grinds with me choppers and something may come of it.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Mark Evans

[Peter Stephenson]

There is a great session with a wonderful set of drinker/listeners to encourage us in a great dusty owd pub in the back of beyond every Sunday lunchtime. We go round the room playing in turn, when the turn comes round for the old timey couple to play, my Anglo and I take time out to go to the bar. I find I can't add anything to the fiddle, mandolin, vocals. Just as when I launch into a set of Irish reels the couple tend to do the same as me. Perhaps the mental change-around from the off-beat rhythm of the old stuff to the lift and drive of the Irish is too great a shift. In the same way drummers and 'box' players tend to stay away from bluegrass sessions.

[jggunn]

I will second the idea that the English would be more intuitive since it has the exact same chromatic range as the violin and mandolin and can use the same harmony notes.

[Mark Evans]

Perhaps the mental change-around from the off-beat rhythm of the old stuff to the lift and drive of the Irish is too great a shift. In the same way drummers and 'box' players tend to stay away from bluegrass sessions.

 

Uh-oh! I'll not be able to leave yet another old bone a layin'. I play bluegrass concertina and bluegrass banjo. Once a month I go to the Groton, MA super jam. No problem, folks always glad ta see me. Down yonder or Panhandle Rag are a hoot on the concertina. Sometimes I'll get off in a corner with a few folks and mix in a little celtic. We actually talk about the shared traditions. I even on occation play in a bluegrass band.

 

It's all from the same font. Listen to a few of Bill Monroe's Mandolin tunes and you will hear his Scottish heritage.

 

I know it's fun to run down bluegrass, particularly traditionalists, but they are in general good people and love music with a passion rarely equaled.

[Peter Stephenson]

Would never run down bluegrass, You've got to be good to make it sound right.

Just that I've never found a bluegrass session that wlecomes concertina.

[Daniel Hersh]

This can be a problem in old-timey sessions too--some are more accepting than others. I walked up to one session some time ago and a banjo player looked up at me, scowled and snarled "We're NOT going to re-tune!"

 

Daniel

 

Would never run down bluegrass, You've got to be good to make it sound right.

Just that I've never found a bluegrass session that wlecomes concertina.

[JimLucas]

I walked up to one session some time ago and a banjo player looked up at me, scowled and snarled "We're NOT going to re-tune!"

Pretty cheeky, coming from a banjo player.

I thought they did a complete retuning for each tune, anyway.

[Daniel Hersh]

Ha! I've been in many old-time sessions where we only played in one key for hours (usually G, for some reason) so the banjos wouldn't have to re-tune. Old-time fiddle players often do a lot of re-tuning too (ADAD, AEAE, GDAD, etc.) which aggravates the problem.

 

I walked up to one session some time ago and a banjo player looked up at me, scowled and snarled "We're NOT going to re-tune!"

Pretty cheeky, coming from a banjo player.

I thought they did a complete retuning for each tune, anyway.

Edited January 22, 2006 by Daniel Hersh