Accordion Vs Concertina Reeds

[Chris Allert]

I've heard that some makers have made progress during the last few years in making italian reeds sound more "concertina-like". The article on this site about this topic (http://www.concertina.net/reeds_article.html) was written way back in 1999 and seems a little outdated.

 

the most recent discussion i could find was a statement by frank edgley in these forums here:

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2427

 

also in this discussion, chris timson asked frank edgley a followup question, and also said he moved the discussion somewhere else that i was unable to find.

 

the follow-up question was if edgley, a maker of italian-reeded concertinas, were able to acquire mass-produced english reeds of quality, would he switch?

 

what i would like to know is how makers of italian-reeded concertinas would evaluate their recent instruments, and if they could cite what in particular has led to progress.

 

also, i'd like to hear from players of italian-reeded instruments built in the last year or two and what their impressions of them are.

 

finally, i apologize for the somewhat provocative title, but i wanted to get your attention.

i realize that this information is probably available in various places, but i think it would be valuable to have it all in one easy-to-read discussion which might later be turned into an article.

[Paul Read]

I had my hands on a 6-month old Edgley today. It was remarkably responsive and I really liked the tone. I also had my Jeffries there. There is nothing quite like the sound of a Jeffries to me but Frank's instrment was extremely impressive and quite comparable for response.

[Frank Edgley]

Quote:"the follow-up question was if edgley, a maker of italian-reeded concertinas, were able to acquire mass-produced english reeds of quality, would he switch?"

Response: Wow, what a complex question. A simple yes,or no is not possible.

First of all, reed tone, and response aside, I believe the basic design of English-style concertinas has some disadvantages. This is largely in the way the reedpan, largely unsupported, except for 6 little blocks, can warp and shrink. Warpage is extremely common with older instruments, especially Lachenals, and is very detrimental to tone, clarity and evenness of sound. Leaking above the chamber dividers can cause weak notes, and even two notes sounding at the same time. One way around this is to make the reedpans out of a plywood, to the detriment of tone quality, however. Reedpan shrinkage or bellows gasket compression causes gaps between the reedpan and the bellows gasket. Again, efficiency is lost as some of the air which is meant to go through the reeds goes through the space between gasket and reedpan. Colin Dipper has used a spline across the grain to help prevent warpage. Italian-reeded instruments, at least the ones I make, have the reedpan and body as one unit, eliminating this problem.

Secondly, the reeds. The reeds mounted on rectangular frames, as Italian reeds are, have advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that they take up more room than the reed tongues mounted on dovetailed frames(English-style). The advantage is that, when screwed down securely with leather gaskets, it is very unlikely they will eventually work loose as they may with just about every English-style reedpan, to cause buzzing as the reed is allowed to vibrate, due, again, to wood shrinkage. Quality of fit and finish? Well-made modern "A MANO" reeds from Italy are probably made with closer tolerances than most vintage instruments, except for the very best Wheatstones and Jeffries. The way the reeds are ground makes a great deal of difference, as concertina reeds are usually thinner, and the profiling does make a difference with tone characteristics. The standard Italian reed is probably thicker, in profile, than an English reed. But Italian reeds can be made thinner, too, and a lot of the difference in relative thickness is offset by the efficiency of the Italian A MANO reeds due to the close tolerances.

Would I switch to concertina reeds if a mass-produced English-style reed were available? Maybe, if they were on rectangular reed plates, and made by Colin Dipper---but then they wouldn't be mass produced, would they, and they would be a heck of a lot more expensive. Tone is a very subjective thing. There is no one "concertina tone" as different vintage makes and even modern vintage-style instruments have differing tones. The best Italian-reeded instruments sound and play great. At the Squeeze-in there was a Lachenal anglo for sale for over $3000. Close by was a new Morse. The Morse, at about half the price, played better, and the tone will mature as it is played in. Anyone at the Squeeze-in having heard or played Tom Lawrence's, or Doug Barr's concertinas that I made for them may answer that question i.e. Would Frank change reeds> Why would he?

[Mark Evans]

I own Morse Albion #209 which came home with me new in mid-April 04'.

 

It has been well played in and is a joy. There is this all on or all off response at very light bellows pressure in song accompanyment which is my only complaint.

 

The action is very fast standing equal and maybe a bit more than the equal to the Aeola.

 

I like the tone. Recorded evidence is confusing however. There have been two live recordings in a hall I know very well. The one recorded mid-way down the main isle sounds like a concertina in every way. The other close up is less pleasing with a high end bite that is very agressive.

 

Another recording project for a friend done in a good studio has me scratching my head. My little Morse sounds like an accordion. It's French-Canadian dance music we are working on and the engineer is of this particular gene pool. He refers to my instrument as a "little accordion". Maybe he's fixing my sound.

 

I've never had to clear a reed. No problems, no hassel, just a very well made instrument. I've made peace with not having a 48 note response. The Morse has been a good fit.

[geoffwright]

How do you go on with accordion-type reeded concertinas if a note stops sounding. Can you get the individual reed out to give it a blow-out?

[Henrik Müller]

How do you go on with accordion-type reeded concertinas if a note stops sounding. Can you get the individual reed out to give it a blow-out?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the best answer to that is a look at Bob Tedrow's photoseries

where he takes a Marcus apart (and puts it together again).

I've looked at those photos for hours .

 

/Henrik

[Mark Evans]

That's all well and good for the Marcus, Tedrow, Edgley and Wakker I assume, but what would be the proceedure for the Morse with waxed in reeds?

[BruceB]

Mark,

If you can get to the Button Box try out the Geuns/Wakker baritone they have. The reed response is amazing! You can play it as softly as any concertina I've ever seen.....it literally plays at a whisper. The tone of the lower notes is as impressive as the response. You'd be hard pressed to find a vintage baritone that plays as well. The response of the instrument overall is exceptionally fast, you can play reels on it as fast as on a good treble.

 

I almost bought it but I just couldn't get past the size & weight issue of a baritone. What a great concertina it is though.

 

 

Personally, I'm perfectly happy with my Morse and have little interest in getting a vintage concertina.

 

bruce boysen

Edited September 26, 2005 by BruceB

[Henrik Müller]

That's all well and good for the Marcus, Tedrow, Edgley and Wakker I assume, but what would be the proceedure for the Morse with waxed in reeds?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uu-ups - you got me there, Mark. I have just looked at the "insides of boxes" photos (something I also have studied for hours ) on The Button Box" - no screws. That does make it more difficult for a on-the-fly fix on the road. And the wax isn't just beewax, I am told, there are more components. Accordion repairmen will know.

 

/Henrik

[Helen]

Let me just add that I LOVE my Edgley and have been very happy with it. Others who have tried it have been equally impressed. (Especially after I figured the correct way to configure the straps.)(Not Frank's fault, by the way.)

 

Sound is subjective. I like the tone of the Edgley.

 

Helen

[Ken_Coles]

I've been playing a Morse Ceili anglo fairly hard for three years and have never had a reed get stuck with dirt or something else in it that had to be removed.

 

I do notice in several trials that a Dipper will start at lower pressure/volume than my Morse; don't know if that is reed type or just a matter of who made it. I have a Geuns baritone anglo and it sounds nice and is pretty responsive, though I'd still love to try an antique baritone. I love the sound and resonance of my beat-up, well worn-in Lachenal C/G anglo, and bet a lower key could be great also!

 

There's no end of this, is there?

[Jim Besser]

also, i'd like to hear from players of italian-reeded instruments built in the last year or two and what their impressions of them are.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What I've noticed is that all of the accordion reeded instruments are much better than they were a few years ago. I have a 6 year old Herrington and a 3 month old Morse; they both play great, but the Morse sounds much better, much more like a traditional concertina.

 

At last year's NESI I tried Edgleys, Tedrows and Geun Wakkers, and they all were very credible instruments; in purchasing a G/D this summer, I had a hard time making up my mind (utlimately, it was its light weight that decided me; a Morse for Morris. so to speak).

 

All that said, I stlll prefer the sound of my restored vintage box.

 

My Morse sounds very good, but to me it sounds different in different settings, sometimes more like a concertina, sometimes distinctly accordionish. The vintage instrument has a consistent, traditional concertina sound with a real bite to it that none of the accordion reeded instruments really duplicates.

 

But for playability, the Morse is great, and people who hear it say they like the sound.

 

.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Jim Besser

[Dan Worrall]

"The vintage instrument has a consistent, traditional concertina sound with a real bite to it that none of the accordion reeded instruments really duplicates."

 

This discussion, and a similar a year or so ago, reminds me of something I saw on my first trip to Ireland, in 1978. I had a grand-uncle there (Michael Doyle) who played concertina, and lived near Miltown Malbay. He died some years before my first visit; I never had the chance to meet him or hear him play. He apparently was a musician of good local standing; he played for sets frequently in his younger years with Junior Creehan (a few years later, Mr. Creehan very kindly taught me a few of the tunes they had once played together). I did get to meet my grand-uncle's elderly widow on that trip, however, who showed me his concertina; she had gingerly kept it stashed away in the back of a cupboard, protected by two layers of boxes and wrappings. It was an ancient inexpensive german made anglo, with double reeds ("accordion" style of course) placed an octave apart. It played reasonably well, but with some elbow effort at reel tempo. His widow told me that he never liked the sound of 'English' concertinas ...by this she meant anglos made by Wheatstones, Jeffries etc...but said that this was the tone that they grew up with. I think this comment was perfectly genuine, and not sour grapes; when these folks were in their prime west Ireland was of course not the wealthy place it is rapidly becoming now.

 

I have heard similar comments about other older Irish players having preferred these 'lesser' instruments...I cannot remember where but perhaps on this site. But to reiterate several of the earlier comments in this thread, tone is totally subjective, and a 'traditional' concertina tone for one is not necessarily a 'traditional' tone for another.

 

From a longer term perspective, these so-called 'accordion' reeded instruments of the past ten or fifteen years have provided a real service to us players....first rate performance at a midrange price. No doubt there are more than a few players today who might not have come to the concertina if the entry price for a nicely responsive instrument was $6000 and six years (but by the way, I wouldn't trade my old Dipper for gold, either).

[ceemonster]

i find it extremely odd and funny how an accident of ethnomusicology (how and when which instruments came to be used) has led to a situation where "difference" has become confused with "quality" when it comes to accordion-reeded versus so-called "authentic-reeded" concertinas. the simple fact that many, particularly in ireland, still can't seem to say out loud, is this----the preference for "authentic" concertinas is not an issue of "quality." when it comes to "quality," a concertina with superb construction, superb bellows & superb button action, plus high-grade accordion reeds, is of equal "quality" to the same box with so-called "authentic" reeds. it just has a different tone that in the particular culture & type of music is valued more highly. but it is not in any way, shape or form, of lower "quality."

 

in argentine tango, the large concertinas known as bandoneons have always been made with high-grade accordion reeds. and they are superb instruments capable of great subtletly and heart-rending expressivenes, which are considered the soul of tango music.

 

it's been pointed out on this site that listeners who have no prior bias or knowledge of which tone they're "supposed" to prefer, often do prefer well-made accordion-reeded concertinas over the sound of "authentic" boxes.

 

now, me personally? well, i do prefer the "authentic" tone, because that expresses the sound i've come to associate with county clare irish dance music. but that preference is a culturally induced aesthetic preference. it's not a "quality" preference. bottom line---well-made accordion-reeded boxes are every bit as high quality, even their accordion reeds, as the so-called authentic boxes. funny, isn't it?

[Ken_Coles]

From a longer term perspective, these so-called 'accordion' reeded instruments of the past ten or fifteen years have provided a real service to us players....first rate performance at a midrange price. No doubt there are more than a few players today who might not have come to the concertina if the entry price for a nicely responsive instrument was $6000 and six years (but by the way, I wouldn't trade my old Dipper for gold, either).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Barely ten years in North America. The first Herrington I spotted was in Fall 1998 at Noel Hill school. At that time other makes (Morse) were rumored but not in production yet. The Morse Ceili demo model (not yet for sale) turned up at the Fall 1999 Noel Hill school. Only at the turn of the century did these instruments really become available. And yes, they have wrought a considerable change. As long as demand grows, new makers will appear, and some of them will be very good. That's good for us, if we are just a little patient.

 

Ken

[Stephen Chambers]

I have heard similar comments about other older Irish players having preferred these 'lesser' instruments...I cannot remember where but perhaps on this site.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possibly from myself talking about Paddy Frawley, a 90-year-old concertina player here in Kilrush. He too dislikes the sound of Anglos, and describes them as "English concertinas".

Edited September 28, 2005 by Stephen Chambers

[Chris Timson]

First, thanks Frank for a very full (though slightly belated ) reply to my question.

 

I am in an interesting position, owning as I do English-reeded concertinas from a number of makers, modern and old, as well as a Herrington and a Morse with accordion reeds, and one concertina with no reeds at all but lots of electronics! Obviously I do not find accordion reeds a bar to buying a concertina as such. Clearly it is possible to make a concertina of quality based on accordion reeds, and equally clearly there are a number of people doing so (to the great benefit of concertina players everywhere). I personally am delighted by this.

 

But (you were waiting for the "but", weren't you?) I have never yet heard an accordion-reeded concertina whose sound I prefer to, well, any of my English reeded jobbies. So far, as well, the very best accordion reeded instruments I have met do not equal the very best English reeded concertina for playability either - though I admit they are getting closer year by year. And if you want a 38 button Jeffries layout in accordion reeds, well, it'll be a long wait**.

 

Yes, accordion-reeded concertinas can - and usually do - sound nice, but for me (and I am talking about me, I'm not trying to lay down canonical law, little point in trying in a forum like this ) the sound of the concertina is the English reed. That's just the way it is, for me. I would be deeply upset if that sound were to disappear or be undervalued because of the accordion reed. Fortunately I don't think that's likely.

 

(Oh, on the reliability front, I am not sure it is fair to compare a modern accordion-reeded concertina with an English-reeded concertina that's 80 or a hundred years old. If the accordion-reeded concertinas are doing as well as their English-reeded equivalents at the end of this century then I think the makers would have some cause for pride. Until then I think the jury is out).

 

Chris

 

** Why no 38 button layout? Acordion reeds are larger than concertina reeds. For this reason accordion-reeded Englishes only have 37 buttons, rather than the 48 of the typical English-reeded instrument. But accordion-reeded Englishes share the lower pitched reeds between the two sides. On an anglo all the larger bass reeds are on one side. I suspect it would not be possible to cram 19 buttons-worth into one side without increasing the size of the concertina or resorting to ugly Bastari-style reed blocks projecting into the bellows. (Wouldn't it be nice if Frank or Bob or Rich proved me wrong?).

[Howard Mitchell]

...** Why no 38 button layout? Acordion reeds are larger than concertina reeds. For this reason accordion-reeded Englishes only have 37 buttons, rather than the 48 of the typical English-reeded instrument. But accordion-reeded Englishes share the lower pitched reeds between the two sides. On an anglo all the larger bass reeds are on one side. I suspect it would not be possible to cram 19 buttons-worth into one side without increasing the size of the concertina or resorting to ugly Bastari-style reed blocks projecting into the bellows. (Wouldn't it be nice if Frank or Bob or Rich proved me wrong?).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Chris,

 

You played my 36 button Norman on the sea front at Sidmouth. This has 18 buttons the left (including the drone). The cramming is done by mounting a few reeds on a separate platform above the main reed pan without affecting the depth of the instrument end like a Bastari.

 

Howard