"Just avoid the C-sharps"

[Peter Laban]

Avoiding the C# completely isn't always viable. There is no single, one size fits all solution to the issue. Best to find the solution  best suited to a particular situation.

 

The single jig The Road to Lisdoonvarna was clearly taken from the reel of the same name (or All the way to Galway, which was the name given to the tune in older collections). The reel is set a tone lower and the single jig sits well in that key. Perhaps that would be the way to go if you want to play the tune at all and are stuck without the C#.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Peter Laban

[LR71]

You could play |A3 ABA B3 BAB A3 ABA| Make those dotted quarter notes very abbreviated.  In fact how about Azz etc?  It wouldn't stand out so much.  In a group this all gets lost in the mix.

 

Listen to Irish melodeon players deal with the absence of Cnat on their D instruments.  That's a very common note in this music, as Peter says.  They edit it out, drag out the previous note, play something that harmonizes.  Or just play it in a different key that matches the original tune's mode.  I once thought I'd found a lost tune on an old recording of one of these players, until his recordings were reissued and the notes identified it as something I knew already! 

 

Box players still use melodeons for their rich sound.  At least in Irish music I don't think many bother with 20 buttons, since you aren't getting anything different sonically, the missing notes, and all the 30 button instruments out there.  There are a few good players who have old concertinas with 24 or 26 buttons, though. 

[LR71]

Also top quality vintage 20 button 'tinas are hard to come by, it seems.  For a sec I was thinking hmm, get a nice 20 button Jeffries and add to it, but finding one looks to be a once in a lifetime thing.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I still think that transpose music to suitable range will also help, along with the other advice, and once in pitch that fits your own concertina it will then all sound more in tune with that altered choice.

For example in.. D major with that C sharp, down to C major ( each note down one place)..will get rid of that C sharp straight away ( unless accuidental is needed,).

Edited November 21, 2023 by SIMON GABRIELOW
Ridiculous teeny phone pad ..awfu!

[David Barnert]

Maybe the best solution is to play it on an instrument with more than 20 buttons. After all, that’s why they were invented.

[Kathryn Wheeler]

I think trying to see what you can come up with, just using 20 buttons, in this key could be a fun, interesting and informative exercise - if you like that sort of thing of course!  No surprise, but I love that sort of stuff!  And who knows you might find you get into arranging pieces and writing stuff of your own through it.

 

Transposing is of course an option (and I do especially love that there is a related piece already in existence that is in a very suitable key) - but of course isn't much use if what you want to do is play with someone else e.g. in a session.   (Of course it utterly depends on the culture of the particular sessions that you go to and whether it's ok to play anything other than the usual!)

 

It absolutely depends on what floats your boat at the end of the day

[Peter Laban]

2 hours ago, Kathryn Wheeler said:

 

 

Transposing is of course an option (and I do especially love that there is a related piece already in existence that is in a very suitable key) - but of course isn't much use if what you want to do is play with someone else e.g. in a session.   (Of course it utterly depends on the culture of the particular sessions that you go to and whether it's ok to play anything other than the usual!)

 

I don't think there should be any qualms about playing a tune in a key that suits your instrument or your playing best, or one that brings out a side of the tune, a mood or whatever, other than the 'usual'.  People do it all the time.

 

Especially when talking about something as simple  'The Road to Lisdoonvarna', which is easy to transpose on the fly.

[Kathryn Wheeler]

I agree!  No qualms except that it can make it tricky for others to join in or cause consternation when their favourite tune they love to join in with in a session isn’t in the key they’re used to or can cope with on their own instrument.      
 

I’m used to having to transpose so often but would actually love to hear people play in some different keys.  And I love thinking about how I might play in a trickier key.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I do not think that fellow musicians would mind adapting their own playing range to suit your playing, after all there is a lot of music out there and chamber orchestra, groups, that play 'period' instruments in which have a more limited general range,  compared to today's standards, and they adapt to that required limit to accommodate the solo instrument. Really quite a lot of older instruments have simple range but are still useable and heard on record, etc..  I am playing a simple Chlumeau this year, a very straightforward wooden instrument, with simple cane reed, and one octave range, no extension keys, but am working within those limits quite nicely now.

So, you may not even need to go any further and find your own voice with your 20 key concertina as it is.🌝

[seanc]

8 hours ago, Kathryn Wheeler said:

I agree!  No qualms except that it can make it tricky for others to join in or cause consternation when their favourite tune they love to join in with in a session isn’t in the key they’re used to or can cope with on their own instrument.      
 

I’m used to having to transpose so often but would actually love to hear people play in some different keys.  And I love thinking about how I might play in a trickier key.

 

IMO... there is not really a good work around. If you playing Irish tunes. Predomiantly in D.. Whatever mode you want to call it. Not having a C# is a killer. Your only real solution that is going to work, is to just not play those notes. At least if you intend to play with others. 

 

A lot of people are going to really bum out when asked to play a tune they have played for 20 years the same way in a different key than standard.

 

[Leah Velleman]

Obviously I don't get to decide where the thread goes.

 

But I'd like to put in one more little plea for the topic to be "When people modify tunes like this, how do they do it?"

 

(If you want to argue about 20 buttons vs 30, session keys vs transposing, or C/G boxes vs others... well, honestly, I don't think there is a right answer to those questions, because it all depends on what you play, with who, and why. But in any case, there's plenty of other threads about them.) 

[Michael Eskin]

Sorry to disagree with pretty much everyone here, but with about 30 seconds thought one can fairly easily work around the lack of a C# in many tunes in D major or even E Dorian mode.  

Will it alter the character a teensy bit, sure, but will it make the tune unrecognizable, I doubt it.

Let's take a tune like "The Merry Blacksmith":

X: 1
T: The Merry Blacksmith
R: reel

M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Dmaj
|:AB|d2dA BAFA|ABdA BAFA|ABde fded|Beed egfe|
d3A BAFA-|ABdA BAFA-|ABde fdec|dBAF D2:|
|:fg|a2ag f2fe|d2dA BAFA-|ABde fded|Beed egfg|
abag fgfe|dcdA BAFA|ABde fdec|dBAF D2:|

Works just fine and perfectly recognizable with some simple repeated d notes for the C#s:

X: 1
T: The Merry Blacksmith
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Dmaj
|:AB|d2dA BAFA|ABdA BAFA|ABde fded|Beed egfe|
d3A BAFA-|ABdA BAFA-|ABde fded|dBAF D2:|
|:fg|a2ag f2fe|d2dA BAFA-|ABde fded|Beed egfg|
abag fgfe|dddA BAFA|ABde fded|dBAF D2:|

How about "Cup of Tea", which starts in E Dorian and goes to D Major:

X: 1
T: The Cup Of Tea
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Edor
|:BAGF GEEF|GEBE GEEA|BAGF GEEG|FDAD FDDA|
BAGF GEEF|GEBE GEEA|B2 BA GABc|dBAG FD D2:|
K:D
|:d2 eg fdec|d2 eg fB B2|d2 eg fdec|dBAG FD D2|
d2 eg fdec|dfaf g2 fg|afge fdec|dBAG FD D2:|
|:FAdA FABA|FAdA FEE2|FAdA FABc|dBAG FD D2|
FAdA FABA|FAde fee2|fdec dBAF|GBAG FD D2:|

With single note d and e substitutions for the C#s, you get a version that works perfectly fine on a 20-button instrument and retains the character of the tune.

X: 1
T: The Cup Of Tea
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Edor
|:BAGF GEEF|GEBE GEEA|BAGF GEEG|FDAD FDDA|
BAGF GEEF|GEBE GEEA|B2 BA GABd|dBAG FD D2:|
K:D
|:d2 eg fded|d2 eg fB B2|d2 eg fded|dBAG FD D2|
d2 eg fded|dfaf g2 fg|afge fded|dBAG FD D2:|
|:FAdA FABA|FAdA FEE2|FAdA FABe|dBAG FD D2|
FAdA FABA|FAde fee2|fded dBAF|GBAG FD D2:|

I'm not saying a 30 button instrument is not a good-to-have, but if all you have is 20 buttons, with a little bit of creativity you can make great use of them.

Here's a link to the notation for all four tunes in my ABC Tools:

https://tinyurl.com/4r4cmmaa

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Michael Eskin

[seanc]

1 hour ago, Michael Eskin said:

Sorry to disagree with pretty much everyone here, but with about 30 seconds thought one can fairly easily work around the lack of a C# in many tunes in D major or even E Dorian mode.  

Will it alter the character a teensy bit, sure, but will it make the tune unrecognizable, I doubt it.

Let's take a tune like "The Merry Blacksmith":

X: 1
T: The Merry Blacksmith
R: reel

M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Dmaj
|:AB|d2dA BAFA|ABdA BAFA|ABde fded|Beed egfe|
d3A BAFA-|ABdA BAFA-|ABde fdec|dBAF D2:|
|:fg|a2ag f2fe|d2dA BAFA-|ABde fded|Beed egfg|
abag fgfe|dcdA BAFA|ABde fdec|dBAF D2:|

Works just fine and perfectly recognizable with some simple repeated d notes for the C#s:

X: 1
T: The Merry Blacksmith
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Dmaj
|:AB|d2dA BAFA|ABdA BAFA|ABde fded|Beed egfe|
d3A BAFA-|ABdA BAFA-|ABde fded|dBAF D2:|
|:fg|a2ag f2fe|d2dA BAFA-|ABde fded|Beed egfg|
abag fgfe|dddA BAFA|ABde fded|dBAF D2:|

How about "Cup of Tea", which starts in E Dorian and goes to D Major:

X: 1
T: The Cup Of Tea
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Edor
|:BAGF GEEF|GEBE GEEA|BAGF GEEG|FDAD FDDA|
BAGF GEEF|GEBE GEEA|B2 BA GABc|dBAG FD D2:|
K:D
|:d2 eg fdec|d2 eg fB B2|d2 eg fdec|dBAG FD D2|
d2 eg fdec|dfaf g2 fg|afge fdec|dBAG FD D2:|
|:FAdA FABA|FAdA FEE2|FAdA FABc|dBAG FD D2|
FAdA FABA|FAde fee2|fdec dBAF|GBAG FD D2:|

With single note d and e substitutions for the C#s, you get a version that works perfectly fine on a 20-button instrument and retains the character of the tune.

X: 1
T: The Cup Of Tea
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Edor
|:BAGF GEEF|GEBE GEEA|BAGF GEEG|FDAD FDDA|
BAGF GEEF|GEBE GEEA|B2 BA GABd|dBAG FD D2:|
K:D
|:d2 eg fded|d2 eg fB B2|d2 eg fded|dBAG FD D2|
d2 eg fded|dfaf g2 fg|afge fded|dBAG FD D2:|
|:FAdA FABA|FAdA FEE2|FAdA FABe|dBAG FD D2|
FAdA FABA|FAde fee2|fded dBAF|GBAG FD D2:|

I'm not saying a 30 button instrument is not a good-to-have, but if all you have is 20 buttons, with a little bit of creativity you can make great use of them.

Here's a link to the notation for all four tunes in my ABC Tools:

https://tinyurl.com/4r4cmmaa

 

 

 

There are plenty of times when subs are something you can get away with..

 

but, depending on the audience. Even if they are unknowledgeable and basically tone deaf. They will  just look at you and say.. “ they’re playing it wrong”

 

 

[Michael Eskin]

3 minutes ago, seanc said:

There are plenty of times when subs are something you can get away with..

 

but, depending on the audience. Even if they are unknowledgeable and basically tone deaf. They will  just look at you and say.. “ they’re playing it wrong”

 

 

No, they won’t.
 

Tunes aren’t fixed in stone.

I’d even consider doing some of those substitutions on a 30 button to keep things interesting.  

I’m guessing you’ve not had much experience playing in sessions with one-row melodeon players who have to make these kind of substitutions all the time depending on the key of their instrument. At least we have two rows on a 20 button instrument instead of one. 

[seanc]

10 minutes ago, Michael Eskin said:

No, they won’t.
 

Tunes aren’t fixed in stone.

I’d even consider doing some of those substitutions on a 30 button to keep things interesting.  

I’m guessing you’ve not had much experience playing in sessions with one-row melodeon players who have to make these kind of substitutions all the time depending on the key of their instrument. At least we have two rows on a 20 button instrument instead of one. 

I have been playing in public, clubs, bars, stages, concerts, etc… since @ 1982… 

The times I/ we were called out for playing wrong / subbed notes/ chords are legion.

 

on tunes that your audience knows.,.. they know when you play it wrong, or half ass it, or sub,  or however you’d like to term it.

give your audience more credit. Just because they don’t say something does not mean they don’t know it’s wrong.

 

if you are in a situation where enough instruments are playing a “right” note to cover for that person “subbing” a note, maybe it’s enough to cover, maybe they just hear it as “ that guy doesn’t know this one”.

 

You may have different experiences. But, ime.. I will disagree.

 

 

[Michael Eskin]

What kind of music do you play?  I'm coming from 30 years playing and hosting traditional Irish sessions, and 20 years playing 30-button Anglo concertina in that setting.
 

That you talk about an audience tells me we are coming from very different places and perhaps is a factor in the whether a 20 button is an appropriate choice.

What you describe doesn’t sound like the traditional Irish session scene’s relationship with the music, so I’m guessing it’s a different genre.  
 

For a session, while people may be listening, we play for ourselves, there is no audience. In a session environment nobody is going to have any issue with the substitution examples I provided. They probably wouldn't even be noticed, much less criticized.

 

Variation is the heart of traditional Irish style playing which is where I’m coming from.  
 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Michael Eskin

[Roger Hare]

4 hours ago, Michael Eskin said:

No, they won’t.
 

Tunes aren’t fixed in stone. (my emphasis)

I’d even consider doing some of those substitutions on a 30 button to keep things interesting.   

<Puts on 'Member of Audience' hat>

 

Back in the day, before I started playing the concertina (badly!), I was always a 'member of the audience', but at the same time was reasonably awake enough to spot when a band was playing a familiar tune 'differently'. I must say that usually, my reaction was not 'They're playing it wrong.', but 'Hey, they're playing it differently - that's clever!'.

 

Long may it continue - Vive la difference!

 

<Takes off 'Member of Audience' hat>

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Roger Hare

[Michael Eskin]

Roger, I'm not talking about bands and audiences, I'm specifically talking about the viability of using a 20 button instrument in the context of a traditional Irish session, where it can absolutely be made to work, just like single row melodeons which have similar challenges.  
 

Sure, if you're doing Beatles song covers in a show for a paying audience, that's a whole different set of requirements than what I'm talking about. Get a 30 button if Eleanor Rigby needs a C#.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Michael Eskin