"Just avoid the C-sharps"

[Leah Velleman]

Occasionally I see someone say "Of course, you can play D Major tunes on a 20-button C/G — you just have to avoid the C-sharps." The idea being, well, some tunes don't have them, sometimes you can skip them, sometimes you can edit the tune, etc.

 

I'd be curious — does anyone here actually play that way? How's it working for you? Have you learned anything from experience about when to attempt it or how to do it well?

 

(If you don't play this way and think it's stupid/untraditional/annoying/a bad investment/a waste of time/a heresy against the One True Fingering System, please have that fight in another thread! There are plenty!)

[Clive Thorne]

I don't play a 20 key (used to though), but I'd have thought if you want to play in D more than occasionally and specific tunes, then a C# is going to be pretty well essential.

Yes, some tunes can be adapted, but in others the C# is an essential part of the tunes character.

 

You can play sone tunes in A on a D/G melodeon (e.g. Athol Highlanders, which doesn't have a G#), which I guess is the equivalent thing, but there are not many.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Clive Thorne

[Bill N]

Not on 20 button concertina, but perhaps relevant:  I was taking some lessons on 10 button "cordeen" (a one row melodeon) from a Newfoundland player.  Part of the tradition there is to play for the dancers in multiple keys on a single row instrument by what he called "faking it".  Sometimes you drop the unavailable note, sometimes you play another that works almost as well or double the note before or after, sometimes a right hand chord or an ornament is used.  The main thing is to keep the rhythm going.  According to him, the dancers don't care!

 

[wes williams]

Just listen to Kitty Hayes play tunes in F on a C/G and  fit in B rather than Bb.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

When I had, years back my 20 key Anglo concertina, I had to transcribe or learn to transpose music to fit, when I found it, and it is possible to do this. But it is also a skill in itself to do this, but straightforward once you know how; music is simply taken up, or down, in its pitch and the tone alters to fit new key.

[Leah Velleman]

5 hours ago, Bill N said:

Not on 20 button concertina, but perhaps relevant:  I was taking some lessons on 10 button "cordeen" (a one row melodeon) from a Newfoundland player.  Part of the tradition there is to play for the dancers in multiple keys on a single row instrument by what he called "faking it".  Sometimes you drop the unavailable note, sometimes you play another that works almost as well or double the note before or after, sometimes a right hand chord or an ornament is used.  The main thing is to keep the rhythm going.  According to him, the dancers don't care!

Well, I just spent an extremely pleasant hour listening to Newfoundland accordion music trying to catch them doing it, and it turns out I can't tell whether they're doing it or not because I don't know most of their tunes Still, had a good time.

[Kathryn Wheeler]

19 hours ago, Leah Velleman said:

Occasionally I see someone say "Of course, you can play D Major tunes on a 20-button C/G — you just have to avoid the C-sharps." The idea being, well, some tunes don't have them, sometimes you can skip them, sometimes you can edit the tune, etc.

 

I'd be curious — does anyone here actually play that way? How's it working for you? Have you learned anything from experience about when to attempt it or how to do it well?

 

(If you don't play this way and think it's stupid/untraditional/annoying/a bad investment/a waste of time/a heresy against the One True Fingering System, please have that fight in another thread! There are plenty!)

 

 

Hi Leah!

 

I don't just play the melody without the C sharps in - there are various strategies that I'd use.

 

It's very dependent on tune, what I do, and very dependent on the context within which the Csharps occur. 

 

Also what I do in sessions and/or accompanying others may well be different to when I'm choosing to play on my own.  

 

 

I think having a good grasp of the underlying harmony (the important notes in the melody in each bar) will really help, whatever you do. This is so that, even if you are not able to play the melody, you can play a note that will go well with it.   If you're not sure about that, find a piece of music with chords written on it.  Or look for the important notes in each bar.  Or just try things and see how they sound!  Recording yourself is always useful.

 

- So, you could come up with a harmony part/countermelody for that section:

Here's an example:  the melody does a run of AB C#D E.   Basically this run is describing the chord of A major (A C# E) - the other two notes are just filler!  You could just play A E E (with the middle E coinciding with the melody's C#). Or you could start that section on the top E  and play E, F# E E  (with the Fsharp coinciding with the D in the melody) or E AB A A ...  This is more complex to write down than to demonstrate.  Maybe I need to do a video on this sometime!  The more you do this, the more you'll recognise the same patterns in melodies and know a little workaround.

 

Another example C# D E - you could start on the A above and descend: A F# E.  Or if the underlying harmony is a A7 (as you're going back to a D chord next) you could do A G F#.  

 

It might be an idea to take a tune you know that is in D major with C sharps and work some alternatives out when you're not in a session and doing this stuff on the fly.

 

- If playing with others, you could do some kind of rhythmic accompaniment instead of playing the melody.  e.g. Open chords (with no third in) are a good option when you can't play a C#  and want to play a chord of A.  Just play A and E together.  

 

I'll probably remember a few other things no doubt later!

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Kathryn Wheeler

[Kathryn Wheeler]

16 hours ago, wes williams said:

Just listen to Kitty Hayes play tunes in F on a C/G and  fit in B rather than Bb.

 

I'm imagining that would sound marvellously modal

[Leah Velleman]

Thank you, Kathryn -- I was hoping you'd come weigh in! I hadn't thought of "switch to harmony/countermelody," but I can see how it would sometimes be the best option.

 

The original thought that inspired this was "How on earth would you play Road to Lisdoonvarna without the C#," and I was getting nowhere just tweaking a note or two, but your approach seems like it could work. I'll do some tinkering and see where I get to.

 

I would definitely watch that video if you ever made it, and I bet I'm not alone.

[Bill N]

12 hours ago, Leah Velleman said:

Well, I just spent an extremely pleasant hour listening to Newfoundland accordion music trying to catch them doing it, and it turns out I can't tell whether they're doing it or not because I don't know most of their tunes Still, had a good time.

I tried to find some examples in my CD collection, but so far no luck.  The fellow who I knew did it for sure is Frank Maher from St. John's.  He mostly played a Hohner 4 Stop in D.  He plays a set of tunes for the dance "Running the Goat"  in D,G,D on the D row, but there isn't really a "missing note" in the middle tune.  I think by the time people were recording they could get their hands on the "proper box" and play the tune "correctly".  In the old days you often had a single musician in an outport community, so they just played what they wanted.  They didn't read music, so even the concept of a key was foreign to them.

 

[wes williams]

3 hours ago, Kathryn Wheeler said:

 

I'm imagining that would sound marvellously modal

Follow the link and you won't need to imagine....

[Peter Laban]

Quote

Just listen to Kitty Hayes play tunes in F on a C/G and  fit in B rather than Bb.

 

 

 

 

While it's a good example of old style players making do with the notes they had, it's not quite the same problem. Kitty never used (the equivalent of) a C natural, (the Bb in this key). So she did use the C# all the time.

 

There's an example of how to avoid the issue: Kitty had heard 'Garrett Barry's version of Miss McLeod' (I believe it was Edel Fox who played it on television) and wanted to learn it.  When I 'd call to the house, as I did once or twice a week, she always had some tunes she heard on Clare FM, on telvision or somewhere else that she suggested we'd practise. I had 'Garrett Barry's reel' as Willie Clancy played it, a version depending on very prominent  C naturals that just wouldn't work in her playing. I got around the problem by making up a version of the tune on the spot, avoiding the note  altogether and Kitty was quite happy with that. That version made it onto the CD we recorded.

 

The version almost  took on a life of it's own when  the late Howard Marshall, who wrote the book on Garrett Barry, wanted to use the recording for his presentation of the book.  In his thinking  it must have been how Garrett played it as Kitty had grown up hearing her father play with Gilbert Clancy, Willie's father, who had a lot of Garrett's tunes, so she must have learned it there. I had tell him we made the version up ourselves, much  to his disappointment.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Peter Laban

[Mikefule]

The C# is a very important note in D major.  It is the one note that makes the difference between G major and D major.  It is the leading note: a semitone below the tonic.  It is the 3rd note of the dominant chord (A major).  Because of its unique quality as the note that defines the difference between adjacent keys, it is particularly important in modulations.

 

However, for dance music, rhythm is 90% of the battle, and you can sacrifice some subtlety of melody and harmony as long as you don't make the dancers fall over.

 

In many cases, when a note is not available, choosing a note either a 3rd above or, less commonly, a 3rd below, will get you by.

[Kathryn Wheeler]

1 hour ago, wes williams said:

Follow the link and you won't need to imagine....

I wasn’t able to earlier but now have and there are so few of those notes she substituted, that they sound like a bit of added spice here and there 

 

I do love that she’s using what she has to hand to make music 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Kathryn Wheeler

[Kathryn Wheeler]

3 hours ago, Leah Velleman said:

 

The original thought that inspired this was "How on earth would you play Road to Lisdoonvarna without the C#," and I was getting nowhere just tweaking a note or two, but your approach seems like it could work. I'll do some tinkering and see where I get to.

I would say that I have no experience of playing Irish tunes or Irish styles of playing anglo, so it may be that my suggestions may not be deemed appropriate in this context nor welcome! 

 

However, if I had to, I’d start by seeing if any of the Csharps are quick passing notes in runs eg B C# D quavers - if so you could try missing that sort out and for example substituting a quaver rest or holding the B for the extra quaver.

 

 

[Leah Velleman]

Right, that's what got me going about it -- some are passing notes, but some are accented (green circles), and there's this business where you play the same figure twice, first on D and then on C# (yellow squares), that's really the catchiest part of the tune if you ask me. At that point "just go play harmony for that part" might well be the best bet...

[Little John]

12 minutes ago, Leah Velleman said:

... that's really the catchiest part of the tune if you ask me.

 

Yes, and for good reason. This tune isn't in D (major), it's in E dorian. The C# rather than C natural is what distinguishes the dorian mode from the bog standard minor (aeolian mode). So if you lose the C sharps you lose part of the essential character of the melody.

[Leah Velleman]

Yeah, maybe you're on to something. I'd been thinking "well, two sharps is two sharps, it doesn't matter if it's D major or A myx or E dorian," but you're right that in dorian it's adding more flavor than it does in major.