The "english" Style Of Anglo Playing

[Chris Timson]

This mainly seems to apply to English players of Irish music - most of the musicians who actually are Irish don't seem to have this problem. I've never had this in Ireland, in fact I've been invited to play something English in sessions over there.

This has been my experience also. Weird, isn't it?

 

Chris

[geoffwright]

At one point a lovely young lady took out her fiddle and started to play an Irish tune. All thirty of us put down our instruments and listened politely.

Doesn't this suggest that most of the 30 might have a blinkered view and refuse to contemplate learning any diddley?

What would have happened if she had played a Scottish tune (like the morris tune Flowers of Edinburgh)?

[JimLucas]

At one point a lovely young lady took out her fiddle and started to play an Irish tune. All thirty of us put down our instruments and listened politely.

Doesn't this suggest that most of the 30 might have a blinkered view and refuse to contemplate learning any diddley?

Not at all. That isn't what was described. The situation was more like a group that has been pushed into a corner then not wanting to also "share" that corner with one of the pushers (even if she didn't know she was a "pusher").

 

Note that in Jody's description she didn't try join the others in playing non-Irish tunes. Had I been there, I might have tried to play along with her, but then continued into an English tune without stopping. My way of saying, "I like what you're doing, but it's not what we're doing."

 

As for "blinkered views", she is the one who didn't stick around to experience something new.

 

What would have happened if she had played a Scottish tune (like the morris tune Flowers of Edinburgh)?

Might depend on whether she played it in the style of a Morris tune or that of an "Irish" reel. I think Chris made clear that "English" is not so much a matter of the names or even origins of tunes, but the style in which they're played.

[Ken_Coles]

This mainly seems to apply to English players of Irish music - most of the musicians who actually are Irish don't seem to have this problem. I've never had this in Ireland, in fact I've been invited to play something English in sessions over there.

Howard

 

In the U.S. it seems to vary by where you are. Once, Howard Mitchell was visiting my part of the world. I took him to the local Irish session. We had to bop one fiddler on the head to get him to stop his reels (nothing elitist, he just can't stop, his parents say he's been like that since he was little) and then Howard played a great round of English tunes on his Crabb and brought the house down. They appreciated it very much. Then we figured out everyone could do a simple English tune (sorry, memory fails me which one) and did that for bit. Wish he'd come back for another visit!

 

Ken

[Pete Dickey]

Might depend on whether she played it in the style of a Morris tune or that of an "Irish" reel. I think Chris made clear that "English" is not so much a matter of the names or even origins of tunes, but the style in which they're played.

 

I came across a chap a couple of years ago who demonstrated this perfectly. A very good melodeon player in his twenties, he had the ability to join in with an Irish tune, take the lead and gradually change the pace etc so it turned into an English style. Sounded excellent and very neatly done but annoyed the hell out of the Irish music players

[Samantha]

Isn't one of the ways that folk music develops is that a musician from another area bringing their music and sharing it?

Samantha

[Chris Timson]

Isn't one of the ways that folk music develops is that a musician from another area bringing their music and sharing it?

Indeed so. I was struck in one of the other threads by the mention of Soldiers Joy as one of the 20 or so core standards of American "old-time" music, which would be a surprise to those English musicians (and there are probably many) who think of Soldiers Joy as core English repertoire and don't realise how far that tune has travelled.

 

Chris

Edited January 24, 2006 by Chris Timson

[JimLucas]

Isn't one of the ways that folk music develops is that a musician from another area bringing their music and sharing it?

Indeed so. I was struck in one of the other threads by the mention of Soldiers Joy as one of the 20 or so core standards of American "old-time" music, which would be a surprise to those English musicians (and there are probably many) who think of Soldiers Joy as core English repertoire and don't realise how far that tune has travelled.

I've mentioned before that the Poles, Finns, and Norwegians -- and probably many others -- also consider Soldier's Joy to be their native tune, though I don't know what names they use for it.

 

There are a number of traditional Danish dance tunes which bear a striking resemblance to certain Playford tunes -- e.g., Hunt the Squirrel, -- and one that is nearly identical to a hit song from a 1950's American movie (Thunder Road by Robert Mitchum, not the Bruce Sprinsteen song of the same name). I've been unable to discover which came first. I have an LP (1950's or '60's) of Ukrainian folk dance tunes which includes one melody which is nearly identical (except for tempo) to the American children's song, I'm a Little Teapot. I've heard bluegrass tunes played as traditional Norwegian, etc., and I find that the Irish Sonny's Mazurka is always a hit in Sweden when I use it as a hambo tune. Now some Swedes are using it, too.

[Howard Mitchell]

In the U.S. it seems to vary by where you are. Once, Howard Mitchell was visiting my part of the world. I took him to the local Irish session. We had to bop one fiddler on the head to get him to stop his reels (nothing elitist, he just can't stop, his parents say he's been like that since he was little) and then Howard played a great round of English tunes on his Crabb and brought the house down. They appreciated it very much. Then we figured out everyone could do a simple English tune (sorry, memory fails me which one) and did that for bit. Wish he'd come back for another visit!

 

Ken

 

Even I can't remember which tune it was! I may have been something like Winster Gallop. I've changed the Crabb for a 40 button Wheatstone and acquired a 37 button Norman in G/D. The 40 button layout helps the English style playing by giving more options to match left hand chords and the G/D now gets much more use for English tunes.

 

The session I frequent in Burton mixes Irish and English. There are those who stick to their own style and there are others who cross the deivide and take the emphasis with them from one tradition to another.

 

Sorry, Ken, I've finished the work I was doing at the engine plant in Indianapolis.

My latest trips have been to Florida and there's a possibility of Kentucky later in the year. Most of the time it's strictly work and I don't have a concertina with me.

 

Howard

 

[indeed so. I was struck in one of the other threads by the mention of Soldiers Joy as one of the 20 or so core standards of American "old-time" music, which would be a surprise to those English musicians (and there are probably many) who think of Soldiers Joy as core English repertoire and don't realise how far that tune has travelled.

 

Chris

 

I had the same feeling when I first discovered A 78 recorded in 1929 by Joseph Allard in Quebec entitled La joie du soldat. It's in the National Library of Quebec Sound Archives at http://www4.bnquebec.ca/musique_78trs/accueil.htm Search by Title (Titre) then look under J for Joie.

 

Howard

[Jody Kruskal]

I was struck in one of the other threads by the mention of Soldiers Joy as one of the 20 or so core standards of American "old-time" music, which would be a surprise to those English musicians (and there are probably many) who think of Soldiers Joy as core English repertoire and don't realise how far that tune has travelled.

 

Chris

 

Mrs. McCloud's Reel, Scottish I presume, has a classic American counterpart in Hop High Ladies the Cakes all Dough. The only real difference, is that the American version resolves to the 1 chord and on the other side of the Atlantic it it pushes you on by ending on the 5.

 

I heard another one. The English dance band Florida plays a tune called Dark Girl dressed in Blue. Sounds very much like the ubiquitous Over the Waterfall made popular these days by US fiddler Henry Reed.

 

Jody

[hjcjones]

Many years ago I visited a museum in Canada. In the room of Inuit art they had a mock-up of an igloo, and inside, to give it atmosphere, they were playing a tape of Inuit songs. I'll swear that the tune to one of them was "What shall we do with the drunken sailor". Collected from Lord Franklin, presumably.

 

But to drag this back vaguely on-topic, the English tradition has always happily absorbed tunes from a variety of sources, including Irish and Scottish, not to mention military and brass bands, and music hall/popular music. It all comes back to a question of style - the English versions of Irish Washerwoman, Flowers of Edinburgh etc sound very different from the Irish or Scottish versions.

 

Howard

[PeterT]

Have you noticed how at concertina weekends that the English system player form a band, the Duet players play jazz and complicated arrangements, and the Anglo players discuss how many different styles ther are to play the same tune?

 

Robin Madge

 

The thing about Anglo workshops, is that you could spend an hour talking about the instruments, and not playing at all. It could be "Mine's a C/G, is yours C/G, G/D or B'/F?", or "My C/G has got 36 keys, where's the C# on your 30/31/32 key; do you have it on both directions on the right hand?" "Is yours a Wheatstone keyboard layout, or Jeffries?". The list does not end here. At least with English, and to a lesser extent Duet (I know, MacCann keyboards did differ), it's a case of "Here's the piece of music which we are going to work on", for a class pre-selected by known reading and/or playing ability. Which has just reminded me that, in general, half of we Anglo players either don't read music at all, or to a poor standard.

 

So, for many Anglo meetings, we end up playing tunes in G. Obvously, for Residential-type events, the tutor may state that the course is intended for the C/G tuning.

 

On the subject of the late Peter Bellamy (who was extremely modest about his playing ability), for those who may have listened to his recordings, but not had the pleasure of seeing him perform, much of his song accompaniment made use of drones. Many of us have a drone button, and I've seen a few instruments with two adjacent drone buttons for left thumb operation. Peter B. had a drone button, plus two metal slides (mounted under the end-plate bolts) which he could slide around to hold down either one or two buttons before he started playing. I've never seen this on another instrument.

 

On the main thread of "English" style, I'll have to gather some thoughts from my experience, and come back with a further posting at some stage.

 

Peter.

[Dazbo]

Having skimmed through this thread (well I am supposed to be working ;-) it's all very interesting.

 

Just a thought (and I don't think it's been explicitly stated) but to me the way of playing an anglo with bass/chords on left and melody on right would have been the obvious step once playing the melody had been mastered even without the tutors (which would follow the fashion rather than set it?). Given the popularity of pianos in England (schools, churches and many relatively poor households) playing chords with the left hand would have been second nature to many anglo players. Even if they didn't have access to a piano they would have assimilated the left-chord right-tune. I believe this would explain also why the German style also had the same split but not why it apparently didn't happen in Ireland.

 

On another note - if there had been a book on how to play the Anglo in an English style I probably wouldn't have taken up the melodeon!

[Paul Read]

I believe this would explain also why the German style also had the same split but not why it apparently didn't happen in Ireland.

 

My take on the Irish style is that the tunes are played in a much more ornamented fashion and they would have taken their cue from the fiddles and whistles. I know it is a generalisation, but the english tunes typically lend themselves better to chording and harmonies. For me, this is what makes them more fun to play (although I think there are many who take the opposite view).

[Paul Read]

(Kilroy is not, I think, relevant here)

 

So are you saying Kilroy was not here?

Edited February 27, 2006 by Paul Read

[JimLucas]

(Kilroy is not, I think, relevant here)

So are you saying Kilroy was not here?

At the moment, Kilroy is here.

[Mark Evans]

I was struck in one of the other threads by the mention of Soldiers Joy as one of the 20 or so core standards of American "old-time" music, which would be a surprise to those English musicians (and there are probably many) who think of Soldiers Joy as core English repertoire and don't realise how far that tune has travelled.

 

Chris

 

Mrs. McCloud's Reel, Scottish I presume, has a classic American counterpart in Hop High Ladies the Cakes all Dough. The only real difference, is that the American version resolves to the 1 chord and on the other side of the Atlantic it it pushes you on by ending on the 5.

 

 

This could require its own thread:

In Quebec there is Le Reel des Soldats and their version of Mrs. McCloud's Reel which like its European cousin ends on the V chord and mostly played in A at a break neck speed requiring both shoulder straps and seat belts ! A lovely name "Reel de Sainte-Agathe" and as one might expect, very satisfactory with that other famous French Canadian dance tune "Reel de Sainte-Anne".

Edited February 27, 2006 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

Given the popularity of pianos in England (schools, churches and many relatively poor households) playing chords with the left hand would have been second nature to many anglo players.

Right hand for melody against chords in the left, is that really what all piano players learn? My parents both played piano, but mainly Christmas carols and hymns, with two voices in each hand. I don't think they could have done chunk-chunk left-hand chords against a simple melody if they tried. And most classical piano music also has a very different sort of balance between the hands.

 

Even if they didn't have access to a piano they would have assimilated the left-chord right-tune.

Really? I certainly didn't. (Actually, I "had access" to a piano, but I didn't learn to play it.) Except for brass band music I pretty much didn't encounter that style of accompaniment until I escaped university. The couple of honky-tonk pieces that my sister's boyfriend played on the piano were a real novelty to me. They certainly didn't teach or play that stuff in my school or church.

 

I believe this would explain also why the German style also had the same split but not why it apparently didn't happen in Ireland.

On the contrary, I think it's more likely that that style migrated the other direction... to the piano from a style that had been popular in small village bands long before. The Irish style was (still is) based more on adding interest by movement of and around the melody, rather than through background clusters of notes, i.e., chords.

 

Also, a lot of musical styles travelled to England from continental Europe, but less of it got over to Ireland, and I suspect then mainly to the eastern side.

 

The story I believe is that the Irish anglo style came largely from trying to imitate the uilleann pipes, rather than the piano.