Learning from book questions

[Cathasach]

Hi folks,

 

I'm a new learner using Gary Coover's books and a "cheap Chinese" 30 button Anglo. It's only been 3 weeks and I'm absolutely in love.

 

I have a couple questions that I hope some of you can help with.

 

First and foremost, when I'm playing Drunken Sailor the left hand is way louder than the right. Is that normal or is it bc of my instrument or how I'm playing?

 

Second, how much difference does the instrument make for very beginning learning?

 

Third, and last, what suggesting do you have for a learner instrument if not my "Trinity College" amazon concertina?

[David Barnert]

Welcome, and good luck with it.

 

1) The lower notes are on the left, and lower notes means bigger reeds, so they will naturally be louder. You can compensate for it in your playing by finding arrangements that avoid playing more than one note at a time on the left and by shortening the notes on the left, leaving more space between them.

 

2) Inexpensive instruments are often considered “beginners’ instruments” because it is assumed that beginners will be less willing or able to pay for a more expensive instrument. But this is not always true, and it is certainly true that a better (ie., more expensive, although that is not always the case) instrument will make learning both easier and more rewarding. It is also true that better instruments tend to hold their value better, so that if you decide to sell it you will likely be able to get approximately what you paid for it.

 

3) Building on the logic in (2), above, the general advice is “buy the best instrument you can afford.”

[Steve Schulteis]

Everything David said is spot on. As a more specific answer to your final question about a better learner instrument, my advice is to watch the buy/sell section of this forum. You'll need to do some research ahead of time (and try some instruments in person if you can) to know what you're looking for, but every now and then a really good deal comes around. I'd still look to spend over $1000 to get a proper upgrade, but you can get a lot more for your money if you're patient.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

There will come, if you keep your obvious enthusiasm, with experience - a better sense of balance between your two hands as to pressure on one side to the other.  A lot of people begin naturally by playing loudly as they learn how to use bellows, of which the pressure can control the volume by applying less or more as desired; some instruments allow, by less pressure, to play more quietly, and then  by applying a bit more force- a louder tone.  Then there's the way the buttons are pressed and so on.. which can aid the shape of the sound made. It all comes with practice and experience.

[Cathasach]

Thanks for the responses! One of the things I've been regularly practicing is playing as quietly as I can to help me get a feel for the instrument, and so my roommates don't hate me all the time. 

[David Barnert]

1 hour ago, Cathasach said:

One of the things I've been regularly practicing is playing as quietly as I can...

 

Find a time to play at a proper level. You may find that the volume difference between the two hands is less of an issue.

[Cathasach]

On 10/9/2022 at 3:50 PM, David Barnert said:

 

Find a time to play at a proper level. You may find that the volume difference between the two hands is less of an issue.

I normally play at a regular level. I started practicing quietly because of the issue with drowning out the right hand.

 

But I'm only a few weeks in so I expect I'll get better at modulating the sound from lower notes as I learn more.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Just considering this issue; perhaps the dominant hand ( if at all).. is more prone to apply more pressure through natural tendancy? I just wonder!? ( Assuming if one is in general life right or left handed.)

[Steve Schulteis]

42 minutes ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

Just considering this issue; perhaps the dominant hand ( if at all).. is more prone to apply more pressure through natural tendancy? I just wonder!? ( Assuming if one is in general life right or left handed.)

 

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.

[David Barnert]

1 hour ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

Just considering this issue; perhaps the dominant hand ( if at all).. is more prone to apply more pressure through natural tendancy? I just wonder!? ( Assuming if one is in general life right or left handed.)

 

Sorry, Simon. Think again. If the two hands were not pressing with the same force at all times the concertina would be thrown out the window (if the player happened to be sitting next to one). Newton’s laws.

 

Also the air pressure within the bellows is uniform throughout its volume. If it were higher at one end than the other it would quickly equalize by flowing from region of high pressure to region of low pressure until it is all equal.

[Michael Eskin]

David, I think you’re missing the point. If played unanchored, its quite possible that one arm may initiate motion with more force than the other and then the other side would compensate with an equal force. One night end up with a pulsing of dynamics based on which arm initiated the motion.

 

Far better to stabilize the instrument by anchoring it on the left leg and letting the right arm essentially completely control the dynamics, plus allows the left arm and fingers to relax more for more dexterity.

[David Barnert]

Michael, I stand by my answer. If one hand exerts pressure on one side of the instrument, the instrument will move (accelerate, even) away from that pressure unless, at the same instant, an equal and opposite pressure is exerted (either by the other hand or, if I’m understanding you correctly, by the leg, although I can’t see how what you call anchoring could supply enough friction to make much of a difference). In any case, no matter how much you press or pull on either end or the bellows, the air pressure in the bellows will not be greater at one end than the other for more than a fraction of an instant.

 

I play with the right end of my concertina resting immobile on my right thigh (unless I’m standing, playing for Morris Dancing or whatever). The left hand is doing all the traveling. But I wouldn’t call it “anchored.” The right hand is continually matching the pressure from the left to keep the instrument from sliding off my thigh.

[Alan Day]

I agree with David here , the sound that comes from the concertina must be equal to the pressure within the bellows. This pressure can be obtained by the force the bellows are subjected to by either hand ,or both hands together.

Al

[Michael Eskin]

Rather than have this be a thought experiment, just try it. Hold your concertina in front of you and try pressing lightly with the left arm while playing a note and compensating for any bellows motion and then press much harder with the right arm and compensate with the left arm for position.  

Yes, ultimately the opposite arm will compensate for the pressure, but I still strongly suggest that one may initiate the tone with a different pressure on each arm, with differing compensation required by the opposite arm.  All this happens in a fraction of a second.  

What you're implying is that there is that all dynamics require equal energy from both sides of the bellows and that arm strength doesn't matter, but that also assumes both sides are completely floating and moving the same distance. 

At the other extreme, while floating the instrument in front of you try alternately locking your elbows against your body, if one arm is stronger than the other, you will get alternating volume levels as a result.

 

This is why I strongly prefer left thigh anchoring where a bottom point of the instrument pokes into your leg.  The right arm does all the work as far as dynamics and the left fingers (where most of the work is done for traditional Irish music) and arm are relaxed and not involved with arresting the motion of the instrument.   I find having a rock-stable platform combined with the ability to relax my left arm and hand as much as possible very helpful both with precision playing as well as dynamic control.

Additionally, I put a piece of leather (originally was my popping strap from my pipes) under the anchor point of the instrument to further help keep the instrument from moving on the push, the strap and the fixed arm position keep it in place on the pull, with very little engaging of the left arm involved compared to trying to actively stabilize it if the instrument is just anchored flat on the top of the leg.

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by eskin

[David Barnert]

2 hours ago, eskin said:

Rather than have this be a thought experiment, just try it.

 

I’m a thousand miles from my concertina this week, so all I can do is think about it. I’m not convinced, but we are two knowledgeable and rational people, so I suspect that the fact that we disagree has more to do with the difficulty of trying to cram reality into the confines of what language can express than any difference we might have in understanding Newtonian physics. Truce!

[Michael Eskin]

15 minutes ago, David Barnert said:

 

I’m a thousand miles from my concertina this week, so all I can do is think about it. I’m not convinced, but we are two knowledgeable and rational people, so I suspect that the fact that we disagree has more to do with the difficulty of trying to cram reality into the confines of what language can express than any difference we might have in understanding Newtonian physics. Truce!

Fair enough.

[Alan Day]

What would effect the air pressure in the bellows is playing a tune in a lower key or with heavy base accompaniment due to the lower notes using more air. So for example using more notes on an Anglo or Duet left or right hand would effect the pressure per push and per pull.

 

I find this an amusing subject that I cannot remember coming up before.

Al

[wunks]

To add to this discussion but draw no conclusion, I did a little experiment myself.  I have 7 duplicated notes left hand/right hand on my duet.  If I press both buttons and apply bellows pressure slowly, the identical notes on the left will start slightly before those on the right both push and pull with 2 exceptions.  If I leave the overlap zone the lag in start time for the higher notes is more uniform throughout.  With increased pressure however the high reeds catch up to and seem to overtake the lower ones in volume.