Holes are too big! Buttons are slipping out!

[Dan A]

So...here's a cool thing that's happening.

 

You know how your buttons are - well, buttons, on levers - and that the bottom of the button has a little arm on it that goes into a hole below, to keep it stabilized? I'm in a predicament. It seems that, through basic wear, the hole below one key has gotten so big that the little arm slips out of the hole; if it does so, then when I try to press the button, it won't go down, on account of having nowhere to go. Thus, if I approach the button at a bad angle, I'll end up knocking it out of place, and then when I try to play the button, I get a stiff refusal instead.

 

Does anyone have a suggestion on how I can prevent this from happening? Would it be best to somehow try to bush the hole itself? Or bush the hole in the faceplate of the concertina, through which the button passes? Or something else entirely?!

 

Any help much appreciated! I've lived with this terrible game of chance for too long!

--Dan

[Chris Ghent]

Before deciding it is a problem with the button have a look at a couple of other things. Is the pivot still firmly seated down in the wood or is it starting to come out. Or has the pad sunk in the centre? Then try pushing down on the lever beside the pivot to see if there is wear in the arm at the rivet. It should not move. Any of these things will allow the button to come far enough out of the hole to catch on the actionboard of a traditionally built concertina.

 

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

Or has the pad sunk in the centre?

Or maybe the pad has just become compressed with age? If so, others might be on the brink.

 

Also, a compressed or missing bushing can be a factor. Play at the fulcrum (is yours a riveted action?) can combine with play in the hole where the button goes through the end to "double" such a risk.

[adrian brown]

Dan

I had a similar problem about a year ago and I just lowered the key height by a tad (maybe less than 0.5mm) by bending the rod slightly inwards. While I know this is not the ideal way of repairing it and probably just puts off the inevitable, it’s so far shown no further signs of leaping out and has bought me a bit of time (touch wood). I guess it probably depends on the degree of wear around the guide hole and how “stuck” it was. Mine seemed to be just occasionally catching if I didn’t hit the button cleanly.

Adrian

[Bruce McCaskey]

Looking at the original problem description, is it a case that the hole is too big, or is it that the button is being permitted to raise out of the hole? The other responses here tend to focus on the latter as being the likely condition and I'm inclined to go that direction too.

 

I've had that problem with a couple of concertinas over the years where a button would suddenly refuse to move because it had come out of its guide hole. Lowering the button resting height a bit was the solution. With my instruments you could sight down the row of buttons from one end and see that the one that tended to jam was sitting a little higher than the others in the row. After verifying that the pivot mount to the board wasn't rising, a careful bend of the lever arm to lower the resting height of the button a small amount cured the problem in just a few seconds.

 

In both cases I've cited here the instruments were just a few years old, but Chris and Jim both bring up good points related to wear and age. Adjusting the button height by reprofiling (bending) the arm may resolve the sticking problem, but if your problem is rooted in a pad issue or a badly worn pivot bushing you are masking the true flaw. You need to assess the situation to determine the cause of your problem and then decide what solution is called for. With my instruments the pads and pivots were good so the reprofiling was all that was needed, and to be clear, the needed adjustment was very small.

[Dan A]

Hey guys - looks you were right! An easy little bend has done the trick, it seems. Bruce: sighting down the row of buttons, it was quite clear that one was too high. Thanks for the tip!

 

--Dan

[Marien]

Hey guys - looks you were right! An easy little bend has done the trick, it seems. Bruce: sighting down the row of buttons, it was quite clear that one was too high. Thanks for the tip!

 

--Dan

 

I am having a similar problem with an old achenal 20b anglo i just got in. Buttons are flying high and their feet are hanging above the action board. It appears to be the problem Jim describes. The felt has been eaten and the pads are thinner than the used to be. It makes the button to come up too far. So my idea is to skip bending levers. After replacing pads the problem will be gone...

[Greg Jowaisas]

Another item to check with symptoms of the button riding high and out of the guide pin hole are pivot posts that have come loose.

 

Dry winter whether exacerbated by central heating can be unkind to concertinas. As the relative indoor humidity drops wood can shrink. Metal parts stay pretty much dimensionally constant. Where wood and metal interact the metal can come loose as the wood shrinks. Winter and low humidity can bring on a myriad of concertina problems such as muffled or flat notes from reed shoes beeing loose in their slots and pivot posts coming loose and allowing buttons to come out of their guide holes. In extreme cases pad boards can crack if the wood is allowed to loose too much moisture.

 

I encourage all concertina aficionados to keep their instruments hydrated during the winter months. I have a small 10X10 room for concertinas and projects awaiting the workbench. A small room humidifier keeps the moisture up. (I even visit and spend time in the room when the rest of the house seems too dry.) A room with watered and thriving plants can produce a similar effect. If room humidification is not possible at least an in concertina case humidifier can be considered.

 

Greg

Edited January 10, 2013 by Greg Jowaisas

[Frank Edgley]

I am now encouraging players not to put humidifiers into their cases. Over the years I have had at least two concertinas sent to me with terribly rusted reeds, so bad they were pitted and some of the reeds needed to be replaced. What did they have in common? They both put humidifiers into their cases. Humidifying a room or a house seems to be a better solution. If a humidifire is used, it is possible to introduce too much water vapour to the reeds. It needs to be done with a great deal of restraint. If you live in an area where you experience very dry air, put the instrument into the case when not being used. I sell a case that is completely airtight, and has a gasket around the lid. In fact, it has a one-way valve to let off pressure for times when to case is in an airplane. The valve releases pressure inside the box when the surrounding air pressure gets low, as in a plane. Keeping your concertina in one of this type of cases will not allow dry air to get into the case, once closed.

[Greg Jowaisas]

I am now encouraging players not to put humidifiers into their cases. Over the years I have had at least two concertinas sent to me with terribly rusted reeds, so bad they were pitted and some of the reeds needed to be replaced. What did they have in common? They both put humidifiers into their cases. Humidifying a room or a house seems to be a better solution. If a humidifire is used, it is possible to introduce too much water vapour to the reeds. It needs to be done with a great deal of restraint. If you live in an area where you experience very dry air, put the instrument into the case when not being used. I sell a case that is completely airtight, and has a gasket around the lid. In fact, it has a one-way valve to let off pressure for times when to case is in an airplane. The valve releases pressure inside the box when the surrounding air pressure gets low, as in a plane. Keeping your concertina in one of this type of cases will not allow dry air to get into the case, once closed.

I think Frank's caution should be noted. His advice about keeping the concertina in its case when it is not being played is also worth following. (for protection as well as humidity control) I would add that letting a concertina adjustr to room temperature before playing is always a good idea. (plays better and avoids condensation of moisture on cold or warm metal reeds)

 

Balancing humidity and central heating and keeping a concertina healthy during the winter in temperate to cold climates is a difficult task. I just had a customer in Quebec report a cracked pad board and tenor treble that left the shop with a snug reed pan just returned with the reed pan practically rattling in the chamois. Some makers like Crabb and Wheatstone used more stable wood materials after WWII such as wood ply for frames and action boards. Colin Dipper and Dana Johnson have used different construction materials and techniques to help North american customers cope with climate demands. http://www.kensingtonconcertinas.com/Pages/construction.html

 

Concertinas are constructed using three great disciplines: Wood working and cabinetry in the frames, pans and action board and possibly end; Metal working in the reeds action mechanism, fasteners and possibly ends; bookbinding and leather work in the bellows, straps, seals and valves. The materials of wood, metal and leather have their own individual requirements. Keeping the wood moisture happy, the metal from rusting and the leather in between cracking and molding is a balancing act.

 

Several violinists, who are forever coping with their high tensioned instruments, have told me they prefer an in case humidifier that uses a gel as a reservoir. Of course they don't have a concertinas metal reeds to worry about.

 

With Frank's caution acknowledged I still encourage all concertina owners to find a "moderate" (as with the Greeks) way to add humidity to their concertina's environment during the winter months.

 

Greg

[Dan A]

Hi again guys,

 

Actually, the problem is persisting now, and I'm still trying to diagnose. The pad was replaced, all the metal parts are quite snug in the pan; I do think it's quite literally a problem with the width of the hole in the pan. After a slight arm bend AND a pad replacement, I'd like to see if anything else might solve this. Kind of a bummer!

 

--Dan

[David Barnert]

Hi again guys,

 

Actually, the problem is persisting now, and I'm still trying to diagnose. The pad was replaced, all the metal parts are quite snug in the pan; I do think it's quite literally a problem with the width of the hole in the pan. After a slight arm bend AND a pad replacement, I'd like to see if anything else might solve this. Kind of a bummer!

 

--Dan

I'm having trouble visualizing this (tactful way of saying I think you must be wrong).

 

It sounds like what you're saying is that when the button is straight up and down, the bottom tip is below the level of the surface of the pan, but because the hole is so big, there's enough wiggle room that the button can get out of the hole into a non-vertical position.

 

Before believing this, I would want to verify the following:

 

• The bottom tip of the button is indeed below the level of the surface of the pan when the button is straight up and down.
  
• The top of the button is level with the tops of all the other buttons when the button is straight up and down.
  
• The hole in question can be seen to be noticeably larger than all the other holes.
  

Is all this really the case? Or am I misinterpreting your question?

[Dan A]

Yes to the last, sometimes to the first two. The button definitely rests slightly higher than the others, but the pad is fresh, the pivot post is definitely secure, and the arm has been slightly bent twice to try to alleviate the problem - once by me, once by the button box - and it was all only better for a tiny span of time. The hole is definitely noticeably wider than the others.

 

--Dan

[Theo]

The button definitely rests slightly higher than the others, but the pad is fresh,

 

The new pad might perhaps be thinner than the old one??

[d.elliott]

Yes to the last, sometimes to the first two. The button definitely rests slightly higher than the others, but the pad is fresh, the pivot post is definitely secure, and the arm has been slightly bent twice to try to alleviate the problem - once by me, once by the button box - and it was all only better for a tiny span of time. The hole is definitely noticeably wider than the others.

 

--Dan

 

I have read this through, but cannot spot what make of instrument we are talking about

 

Dave

[Bruce McCaskey]

Dan,

 

The diameter of the hole in the board aside, I'm having a difficult time with understanding how a wider hole would result in the button being higher than the rest, especially since the arm has been re-shaped twice. It occurs to me that the arm could have gone back to its original shape, that is, the bending didn't result in a permanent re-shaping, but it seems unlikely. Ignoring button height for the moment, if you take the end off and look at the height (above the board) of the metal arms at the point where the buttons attach, how does the height of the arm for the troublesome button compare with those on either side?

 

What about the hole in the button itself where the arm penetrates it? Is the hole somehow different from the others, perhaps more elongated? Depending on the instrument it may be felt-lined where the lever arm penetrates it, but I'm wondering if there's enough "slop" in the button hole to allow inertia after a sudden release to permit the button to move out further than it should. I would expect, by the way, that either all the holes in the buttons are felt-lined or none of them are, and to be clear, I'm not talking about felt bushing that may be present around the hole in the board that the button passes through. Back on point, if you grip the button on the sides and then move it gently up and down, is there any independent up and down motion before it starts moving the attached lever arm? You may have to do this "slop" test with the end off so that you can see the arm to be able to determine how much the button can move before the arm does too. Assuming you do find some "slop," compare that button with a few of the others and see if it has noticeably more than they do.

 

It would likely be quite helpful if you could include some photos that illustrate the problem and provide views of the mechanism and button/hole. If it's not convenient to post them here directly, you could put them on another site (like one of the many photo-specific sites) or in a public "cloud storage" folder in a Dropbox-type location, and then provide the link address here.

[Dan A]

Don't have quick access to a camera (my phone is woefully out of date), and I'm running around like a chicken with no head to get ready to move to China, but if I can I will get pictures sent over asap!

 

--Dan