D/A anglos . Were they available in the older days?

[michael sam wild]

How widely available would D/A Anglos be? Either 2 or 3 rows with A as the inner row.. I'm exploring older styles of Anglo and melodeon, particularly in Irish music but would be interested in any info on other countries and styles

[RP3]

I'm aware of several D/A tuned 12 sided Wheatstones -- Grey Larson has one. These were custom made by Wheatstone for customers in the Cincinatti, Ohio area. If I remember correctly, at least Grey's came with a second set of reedpans but I don't remember their tuning. If you check back on old threads you can probably determine when these were made because they've been discussed before.. Greg J. will likely remember, but he's currently at Irish Arts week. But, I don't think that many were made in that tuning.

 

Ross Schlabach

[Ken_Coles]

I did a survey of Anglo keys a while back and like Ross have the impression that D/A was not common. Examples do exist, however. I need to make some minor revisions to the page (what else is new!), including that pitches stamped on the reed shoes sometimes did not correspond to the notes inserted during construction.

 

Ken

[Daniel Hersh]

How widely available would D/A Anglos be? Either 2 or 3 rows with A as the inner row.. I'm exploring older styles of Anglo and melodeon, particularly in Irish music but would be interested in any info on other countries and styles

There are some decent German-made 20-button D/A's from around 1980, sometimes marked with the "Galotta" name - see this post and the ones that follow it.

[Alex West]

I've a D/A Crabb which probably dates from the late 1800's. It has C Jeffries stamps on it, but these were added after someone tried to obliterate all of the J Crabb markings (but forgot one).

 

Given the high pitch (one hole tone higher than a conventional C/G) it's surprisingly mellow and not as squeaky as you might have thought. I got it to play in Scottish sessions which tend to tunes in D and A, but have found that it's more productive to try and learn to play my G/D box more chromatically.

 

I've not come across another

 

Alex West

[JimLucas]

How widely available would D/A Anglos be? Either 2 or 3 rows with A as the inner row.. I'm exploring older styles of Anglo and melodeon, particularly in Irish music but would be interested in any info on other countries and styles

Aside from the cache discovered in Cincinnati (which I recall included the 12-sided Wheatstones but also some others, including a piccolo and a baritone), the only other D/A's I've come across were a few 20-button boxes from Germany, Czechoslovakia, etc. I have the impression that D/A is a regular option with those boxes, though still far from the most common tuning.

 

FWIW, I also have a cheap Chinese melodeon that I bought at Job Lot Trading in NYC (in the '80s, I think it was). They had a batch of dozens, and I believe they were all in D/A.

[Paul Groff]

Hi all,

 

COuple of thoughts on this specific topic and the "D/A fingering style" more generally in Irish music, since Mike has posted on a few threads about that.

 

First, I should say that I use the expression "D/A fingering style" to mean a way of playing the anglo concertina in which an actual D/A concertina would make the tunes come out in their "standard" (most common) keys as played today.

 

Next, remembering that in those "older days" the actual pitch of the music was somewhat negotiable -- there wasn't quite as much pressure as some people seem to feel today to have big sessions with many instruments all matching in pitch. Thus a solo concertina player (or one that a fiddle could tune to) could play for a dance and it might not always matter whether they had a C/G, B/F#, D/A etc concertina. What would matter to them would be where they placed their fingers on the buttons to get the tune, and in decades past many players seem to have been using that "D/A fingering style" as defined above -- at least on *some* of their tunes.

 

Now, to Mike's title question: I've seen quite a few D/A concertinas over the years, both 2-row and 3-row, and both London and continental European make. The London-made ones include pre-WW2 Wheatstones such as the series that includes Greg's, the 19th century J. Crabb that Alex mentioned, post-WW2 Wheatstones (including a nice baritone D/A from the 1950s), a small post-WW2 Crabb, and the occasional Jones and Lachenal. That's just to consider the ones that I think were originally made in D/A.

 

Also I have reversibly converted a few rebuilt Lachenals to D/A over the years. As some of you know, before the flowering of new makers of accordion-reeded concertinas it was hard to find a good instrument for beginning anglo concertina students (with solid, quick returning action and 6 fold bellows) in the price range below the 3-row rosewood Lachenals. On the other hand, then as now there was a surplus of wrecked 20 key Lachenals barely worth repairing, so I would occasionally convince one of the good makers to rebuild one of those better than new. A 20-key Lachenal C/G has all of the notes needed to play thousands of classic Irish tunes from the repertoire of the some of the best players who learned in the early 20th century. When you rebuild those and improve the quality of action, bellows and reeds you have a useful student instrument (to say the least). Those instruments obviously have 40 reeds. It turns out that (depending on layout details) an additional 17 or so reeds is sufficient to put one of them into D/A, reversibly, with some moving reeds around and a little shimming and finish tuning, but no modifications to the reedpans or reed shoes.

 

Such a 2-row D/A can be useful for students learning traditional settings of Irish tunes, because (as I have often tried to show people) many of the settings played by those early-to-mid 20th century Irish concertinists will come out in today's standard keys and pitch when played on a D/A. In fact I've taught a couple of workshops and classes based around those settings and styles, which are often closely related to contemporaneous styles on the one-row melodeon. Learning to play the concertina that way (even if you also play in other fingering styles) has many advantages for someone who likes Irish music. If you have a C/G instrument, playing in "D/A" fingering on that C/G concertina gives you the option of playing with "C" pipes, flutes, whistles, and fiddles tuned down a whole tone, without buying a Bb/F concertina. As we've discussed here, the late Kitty Hayes played *much* of her repertoire that way on the recordings I've heard, using (mostly) just the main two rows of a C/G concertina but in D/A style so the G tunes came out in F, the D tunes in C, etc.

 

The key of G on a D/A concertina (or F on a C/G concertina) is a little tricky to some players, but mainly because they may not have practiced it. On a 2-row concertina in D/A there may not be a C natural, just as there's no C natural on a 10-key melodeon in the key of D .. . but the great repertoires and styles of the Irish melodeon players past and present show that this difficulty doesn't preclude lots of great music in many keys, including G.

 

It seems to me that Kitty Hayes (RIP) didn't play much or at all in G minor -- when she played tunes that are normally played in A minor, she played them in A minor rather than transposing them down as she did with the D, G, and E minor tunes. Thus just having a D/A instrument wouldn't have solved all her transposition problems. This is consistent with other players such as Mrs. Crotty and John Kelly who played various tunes in different transpositions away from the "standard" keys. I remember corresponding with Peter Laban about Mrs Hayes' needs, when she was alive, and that there was a lot of confusion including claims that she needed a "D/G" (sic) or a G/D. Really, a local tuner should have been able to cheaply, easily, and reversibly swap in 17 reeds and move a few around to let her try out her own Lachenal with the main two rows in D/A. But then, unless she changed her fingering, she might have found she was playing her "A minor" tunes in B minor.

 

The biggest impediment I've found to an appreciation of the traditional D/A styles in Irish music (and how they relate to melodeon styles, and also to Mullaly's music), no matter what key the actual instrument, is closed-mindedness. Some amateur players have seemed very contentious when I have answered questions about this subject; I got the feeling they were holding on doggedly to small bits of information that kept them from learning a new idea -- and thus missing the big picture of the diversity of ways concertinas have been played, are being played, and might be played. "But the C/G concertina is the standard instrument, and my famous teacher says . . . "

 

PG

Edited July 19, 2012 by Paul Groff

[michael sam wild]

I'm aware of several D/A tuned 12 sided Wheatstones -- Grey Larson has one. These were custom made by Wheatstone for customers in the Cincinatti, Ohio area. If I remember correctly, at least Grey's came with a second set of reedpans but I don't remember their tuning. If you check back on old threads you can probably determine when these were made because they've been discussed before.. Greg J. will likely remember, but he's currently at Irish Arts week. But, I don't think that many were made in that tuning.

 

Ross Schlabach

 

 

Is that D/A with the A row a fifth higher in pitch ( a converted C/G) or like Ken mentions in his compendium with the A a fourth lower? I'm considering what Alex has I think and Paul seems to indicate it can be achieved by doing a lot of reed swaps etc with some retuning of reeds.There must be quite a few 2 rows or some with only a few accidentals

Edited July 19, 2012 by michael sam wild

[Paul Groff]

I'm aware of several D/A tuned 12 sided Wheatstones -- Grey Larson has one. These were custom made by Wheatstone for customers in the Cincinatti, Ohio area. If I remember correctly, at least Grey's came with a second set of reedpans but I don't remember their tuning. If you check back on old threads you can probably determine when these were made because they've been discussed before.. Greg J. will likely remember, but he's currently at Irish Arts week. But, I don't think that many were made in that tuning.

 

Ross Schlabach

 

 

Is that D/A with the A row a fifth higher in pitch ( a converted C/G) or like Ken mentions in his compendium with the A a fourth lower? I'm considering what Alex has I think and Paul seems to indicate it can be achievd by doing a lot of reed swaps etc with some retuning.

 

Mike, Since I'm online here I'll answer part and then probably RP3 will answer more of your question to him. I have seen some of the Wheatstone D/As and all had the inside row tuned a fifth higher than the middle row. In other words, the whole instrument is basically an upward transposition of a C/G layout by a whole step (for the standard, "treble model" D/A *). All the old D/A's that I've seen were like that in fact. I think the other type of D/A may have originated as a factory mistake that led to Bob Tedrow adopting that system and then making more of them!

 

With traditional, London-made concertinas (and those made in that style by some modern makers) it's not too hard to move reeds around if you insure that the fit of reed shoe to reedpan is OK. Going from C/G to D/A, some reeds will be moved into same-or-larger-sized slots in the reedpan and a few will have to be added in, where notes for the D/A layout are needed that are not present in that octave or in that number in the set for a C/G layout. A little shimming with paper or card might be needed here and there, and a small amount of fine re-tuning in some cases. But this is not a complicated project and is mostly reversible except for the very small amount of fine tuning. If you do this with a Lachenal, where lots of spare reeds are available, or with a modern-made instrument where the maker can supply extra reeds, it seems a reasonable project. I wouldn't recommend anyone do this to a fine vintage Linota, Crabb, or Jeffries without much thought and expert advice.

 

PG

 

* As I mentioned above, I've also seen a baritone D/A Wheatstone where both rows were pitched one whole tone higher than a baritone C/G anglo (or, 5 whole tones lower than a typical "treble" C/G). The "Tedrow type of D/A" where the inside A row is one fourth lower in pitch than the middle D row, would be unusual (if ever found) among London-made concertinas, based on my experience.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Paul Groff

[michael sam wild]

Thanks Paul, I posted this before your latest very helpful post reached England!

 

As another slant on this , when I was listening a lot to older players like Mickie Donoghue, who mary MacNamara knew, I realised that they played D minor ''old style' on the C row of the C/G. When I was studying Bertram Levy's first tutor book he talked about the key of D but I realised the tune he used, Morning Dew was in D minor and you could do a lot with simple chord patterns along the C row.

 

 

This clouded my usually sceptical brain and convinced me that the Paddy Murphy derived cross row style was a natural evolution in playing in D from that older way of playing and for those that work on that style it comes with time and opens up lots of possibilities. As a mouth organ player I would reach for a D mouth organ to change the key. But not being aware that D/A concertinas had been available to such as Mullally I went against my playing of D on the rows on melodeon and mouth organ and went on the long road to modern cross row playing on C/G with which I still grapple.

 

 

 

The other weekend I was in a session at the Commercial at Cleckheaton festival led by Dave Mallinson (Mally) on his D/G melodeon and I thought why do I subject myself to anxiety on a C/G Anglo when nearly all the tunes played that day were in D or G and which I played happily for years on D/G melodeon and D or G mouth organs!? I didn't go over to B/C or C#/D accordion any more than Mally, Tim Edy etc, so why did I accept that C/G anglo was the only way to go with concertinas?.

 

 

 

As I heard more and more old players playing happily along the rows for dance music which most of the music I'm talking about is I began to think , 'blow it' I'll go back a bit, I'm old enough and can do what I want!

 

 

Don't get me wrong folks, The journey on C/G has been well worth it and I know I can handle the newer styles if I need them and C/G will be my main instrument for all sorts of reasons, It's just another addition to the armoury on this fascinating instrument.

,

I wish we'd not lost that old 2 row of my Gran's ( born in the 1880s) all those years ago, last time I saw it was in 1948 when I was 9 and she was long gone. It was in the coal house going mouldy on a shelf.

Edited July 19, 2012 by michael sam wild

[Paul Groff]

As another slant on this , when I was listening a lot to older players like Mickie Donoghue, who mary MacNamara knew, I realised that they played D minor ''old style' on the C row of the C/G. When I was studying Bertram Levy's first tutor book he talked about the key of D but I realised the tune he used, Morning Dew was in D minor and you could do a lot with simple chord patterns along the C row.

 

 

This clouded my usually sceptical brain and convinced me that the Paddy Murphy derived cross row style was a natural evolution in playing in D from that older way of playing and for those that work on that style it comes with time and opens up lots of possibilities. As a mouth organ player I would reach for a D mouth organ to change the key. But not being aware that D/A concertinas had been available to such as Mullally I went against my playing of D on the rows on melodeon and mouth organ and went on the long road to modern cross row playing on C/G with which I still grapple.

 

 

 

The other weekend I was in a session at the Commercial at Cleckheaton festival led by Dave Mallinson (Mally) on his D/G melodeon and I thought why do I subject myself to anxiety on a C/G Anglo when nearly all the tunes played that day were in D or G and which I played happily for years on D/G melodeon and D or G mouth organs!? I didn't go over to B/C or C#/D accordion any more than Mally, Tim Edy etc, so why did I accept that C/G anglo was the only way to go with concertinas?.

 

 

 

As I heard more and more old players playing happily along the rows for dance music which most of the music I'm talking about is I began to think , 'blow it' I'll go back a bit, I'm old enough and can do what I want!

 

 

The journey on C?G has been well worth it and I know I can handle the newer styles if I need them and C/G will be my main instrument for all sorts of reasons, It's just another addition to the armoury on this fascinating instrument.

,

 

Well Mike,

 

I guess not too many players before WW2, or since, had D/A concertinas. But many were playing *some* of their tunes in "D/A fingering style" as I defined it -- however their "pitch" (that is, the pitch of a whistle that would be in tune with them) was all over the map depending on whether they were playing a C/G, G/D, B/F#, Bb/F, Eb/Bb, or D/A concertina.

 

I'll go get some work done now, email me if you have more questions,

 

PG

[Dowright]

Anglo concertinas pitch in D/A and, in particular, Lachenal ones are rare. I have serial numbers and descriptions for 2,400 Lachenal Anglo concertinas with serial numbers ranging from No. 106 to No. 201258. Of these Lachenal Anglos, only one is pitched in D/A. And that one is a 22-key miniature (3/3/4 inches across the flat of the ends), No. 136493. I have attached a photo.

Then, there are the 40-key D/A Wheatstone Edeophones made in the mid-1930s. These include Wheatstone No. 33301, No. 33302, No. 33303, and No. 33527 (the one owned by Grey Larsen). On the Wheatstone Edeophones, see Neil Wayne, Margaret Birley, and Robert Gaskins, "A Wheatstone Twelve-Sided 'Edeophone' Concertina with Pre-Maccann Chromatic Duet Fingering," http://www.concertina.com/wheatstone-edeophone/index.htm. I have attached photos of each end on No. 33301.

[Dowright]

My preceding post should have indicated that, in the early 1930s, Lachenal made the first of the few Edeophone Anglos. The only Lachenal one for which I have information is No. 4860, 40-Key Anglo Edeophone, Metal Ends, Bone Buttons, 7-fold bellows: left-side stamp, 4860, and right-side stamp, Edeophone Anglo, Lachenal & Co. This concertina was sold through Bonham's auction house some time ago.

 

At the time of its manufacture, Lachenal Anglo serial numbers were in the 201,000 range, but they were building some Lachenal New Model Anglos and the new Lachenal Edeophones with serial numbers from their Maccann/Crane duet serial number series. Presumably, they liked 4-digit numbers, rather than 6-digit numbers, for the stampings on these instruments, given that the serial numbers were shown on the exterior.

 

Unfortunately, I do not have information on the keys of No. 4860, but it certainly might have been in D/A, like the later Wheatstone ones.

[Frank Edgley]

[quote name='Paul Groff'

 

Such a 2-row D/A can be useful for students learning traditional settings of Irish tunes, because (as I have often tried to show people) many of the settings played by those early-to-mid 20th century Irish concertinists will come out in today's standard keys and pitch when played on a D/A. In fact I've taught a couple of workshops and classes based around those settings and styles, which are often closely related to contemporaneous styles on the one-row melodeon. Learning to play the concertina that way (even if you also play in other fingering styles) has many advantages for someone who likes Irish music. If you have a C/G instrument, playing in "D/A" fingering on that C/G concertina gives you the option of playing with "C" pipes, flutes, whistles, and fiddles tuned down a whole tone, without buying a Bb/F concertina. As we've discussed here, the late Kitty Hayes played *much* of her repertoire that way on the recordings I've heard, using (mostly) just the main two rows of a C/G concertina but in D/A style so the G tunes came out in F, the D tunes in C, etc.

 

Loretto Reid from Co. Sligo, currently living in Toronto is a highly skilled concertina player who plays in that style. Many years ago, she had me repitch her instrument to D/A so that when she played in her normal fingering style it would result in tunes being played in the standard keys of G and D.

 

.

 

 

 

PG

[Paul Groff]

 

 

Loretto Reid from Co. Sligo, currently living in Toronto is a highly skilled concertina player who plays in that style. Many years ago, she had me repitch her instrument to D/A so that when she played in her normal fingering style it would result in tunes being played in the standard keys of G and D.

 

 

Hi Frank,

 

Another musician using a D/A for Irish traditional music is Ted McGraw (well known Comhaltas archivist, DJ, and researcher on the Irish-American accordions), who I believe has another one of the deluxe pre-war Wheatstone treble D/As.

 

Have you run across the 1950s Wheatstone baritone D/A I mentioned earlier? It was also in Canada, last I heard. Very nice instrument although with laminated soundboards, late action, and aluminum-framed reeds.

 

PG

[michael sam wild]

Elsewhere I've asked about D/A accordion, in connection with Newfoundland players. We were introduced to Minnie White's playing by Roger Digby and Liz Giddings at Bradfield last weekend.

[Takayuki YAGI]

How widely available would D/A Anglos be? Either 2 or 3 rows with A as the inner row.. I'm exploring older styles of Anglo and melodeon, particularly in Irish music but would be interested in any info on other countries and styles

There are some decent German-made 20-button D/A's from around 1980, sometimes marked with the "Galotta" name - see this post and the ones that follow it.

I own a German 20-button D/A labelled "Voigtländer" (I believe it was made by Scholar). There is a pencil note indicates the date 60.7.24 (means July 24,1985) inside the cardboard box, the same period as Daniel's post.

--

Taka

[michael sam wild]

Following the discussion I am having a 2 row 20 button C/G metal ended Lachenal altered to D/A. I wonder whether to get a 'drone' button to be worked by the thumb where there is a hole in the LHS fretwork (like the air button on RHS) .This could offer various note possibilities in either direction. Or maybe a single accidental with C natural for playing 'properly' in G . I may just stick with the simple 20 button and see how I get on. Work in progress! Any helpful advice welcome