How often do springs break?

[Dan A]

Hello c.n forums!

 

I've got a question for those of you who have broken a spring before - actually, those of you who have broken two. What amount of time elapsed between the two breakages? Since getting my current instrument - a John Connor 30-key C/G anglo, about 2 or 3 years old - I've had two springs break, with only about a month in between! Is that normal at all? A friend, upon the first break, said something like, "Steel springs should last you close to a lifetime." So what gives? What is it, ultimately, that makes springs break? Granted, I do sometimes put the instrument through its paces something decent, but on the springs that broke was the G/A, third finger, left hand, inside row, a button I use fairly infrequently, relative to some of the other buttons in that range (I typically only use it for chords, octaves, or playing in unison with the middle row G/A). I'm curious what's going on - and whether I should expect this to happen more in the near future, and should I have some major overhaul in mind.

 

Anywho...here's to not having an instrument 2 days before a gig...again :\

 

--Dan

[RAc]

two spring breaks in one month? in summer? lucky you! (scnr, just like jim lucas i am hostage to any pun that comes my way).

 

anyways. that does not sound right, maybe the spring is ill fit. do you have a close up picture of the action pan?

 

in the mean time, you can cut down on turnaround by making and fitting your own springs. bob tedrow has a little tutorial on his homepage.

 

sorry for the lowercase, i'm on smartphone...

Edited September 13, 2011 by Ruediger R. Asche

[Geoff Wooff]

The most common cause of spring failure comes under the heading of "Metal Fatigue"... the spring material just snaps or shatters due, in the case of Brass (or any Copper based alloys), to "Work Hardening". The more you 'work' the spring, in this case by bending it back and forth, the harder the metal becomes and eventually it reaches a brittle state and ,Snap!

 

It happened to me recently that the very original looking set of springs in my 113 year old Wheatstone started to break... yes Two in a week! This was due to the fact that I had removed one Damper Felt Washer from under each Key, to get a little more key travel and thus lift the Pads further so as to let more noise ( music?) out, therefore with this extra Key travel comes the extra spring bending.. at last too much after more than a Century of good service.

 

Sometimes the material that springs are made of is too hard in the first place. I bought some Concertina springs a few years back.. they were all Right-Handed... when I need a Left-Handed my usual method is to turn the head of Right-hander

with a small pair of Pliers... these New springs invariably snap when I do this whilst if I take an old (original) spring I can usually manage to make this conversion.

 

I allways make my own Key springs (for the Uilleann pipes I make ) and the hardness or springy- ness is created by this Work-Hardening phenomenum. I actually Hammer (Beat) strips of Brass or Nickel silver untill they are the correct stiffness, just!

I should make my on Concertina springs but I prefer the originals.

 

Yes I have had to change a spring during a Gig.. I took one out of a spare Concertina.. but I replaced it in its original home the very next day. So the Moral is keep a supply of both left and right handed springs to suit your Concertina and carry one or two with you at all important outings because Springs can break.. new or old.. unless they are made of steel when,as you say, they ought to last a lifetime .

Edited September 13, 2011 by Geoff Wooff

[JimLucas]

Since getting my current instrument - a John Connor 30-key C/G anglo, about 2 or 3 years old - I've had two springs break, with only about a month in between! Is that normal at all?

No.

A friend, upon the first break, said something like, "Steel springs should last you close to a lifetime."

Original springs in all the vintage concertinas I've seen were brass, not steel. And I've replaced a few for others -- though never yet more than one per instrument, -- but I've never yet had to replace a spring in my own concertinas, not even those more than 100 years old.

 

...the springs that broke was the G/A, third finger, left hand, inside row...

Two springs broken on the same button? Sounds like the problem may not be the springs themselves. Could that spring be rubbing on something, so that it gradually cuts through?

 

I'm curious what's going on - and whether I should expect this to happen more in the near future, and should I have some major overhaul in mind.

You shouldn't have to expect a spring to break, but if it's broken twice in the same position, that suggests that there's something else wrong which is causing those springs to break. A major overhaul shouldn't be necessary, but a careful examination is in order, to find the cause and then correct it. It might be something you could discover for yourself, but if not, have a professional look it over.

 

Best, of course, would be to have John Connor himself address the problem, but I'm guessing that if you lived near to him (your profile doesn't say) you would already have done that.

[AnnC]

two spring breaks in one month? .....

 

anyways. that does not sound right, maybe the spring is ill fit. do you have a close up picture of the action pan?

 

It doesn't sound right at all

 

In nearly 30 years I've only had 1 spring go on me, and that was in an old concertina.

 

The Dipper has been played almost daily for 19 years, in ceilidh bands, Morris sides, sessions and 'just for the fun of it', so it's had a fair workout in that time with no spring problems.

 

Perhaps there's a problem with the quality or gauge of steel used for the springs in your Connor ?

Ask John Connor to have a look as he'll know best

Edited September 13, 2011 by anlej

[Dirge]

I had removed one Damper Felt Washer from under each Key, to get a little more key travel and thus lift the Pads further so as to let more noise ( music?) out, therefore with this extra Key travel comes the extra spring bending.. at last too much after more than a Century of good service.

 

 

Put them back! I cut the damper felts to one per key to lower the action; I told Mike Acott what I'd done and he said 'Your hands will complain'. He was right it seems I need the cushioning of two felt washers to stop aches developing.

 

(Since then my playing has included more and more '2 notes with one finger' stuff and you need the keys a bit higher to get away with this, so I've stopped worrying about that one altogether.)

 

Since I'm here; I've never had a broken spring except where they were the original antiques. As far as I'm concerned springs are up there with pads and valves as automatic replacements when a long retired instrument is reconditioned so mine are always fairly new. Again most of mine were fitted by Mike A (who sets up a mean action in my opinion). They are brass wire, like most concertina springs I think, and they give me no trouble, although I do have a couple of spares about if needed. I think 2 breaking in a short time on a fairly new instrument is reason enough to speak to the maker and ask if he's used a bad batch of wire and would care to replace the rest too!

 

One thought though; if they are steel they might rust at spots if you've been playing at the beach or whatever and that would be enough to cause a fatigue point. Not a problem with brass, which is perhaps why it is so common.

[Geoff Wooff]

I had removed one Damper Felt Washer from under each Key, to get a little more key travel and thus lift the Pads further so as to let more noise ( music?) out, therefore with this extra Key travel comes the extra spring bending.. at last too much after more than a Century of good service.

 

 

Put them back! I cut the damper felts to one per key to lower the action; I told Mike Acott what I'd done and he said 'Your hands will complain'. He was right it seems I need the cushioning of two felt washers to stop aches developing.

 

(Since then my playing has included more and more '2 notes with one finger' stuff and you need the keys a bit higher to get away with this, so I've stopped worrying about that one altogether.)

 

Since I'm here; I've never had a broken spring except where they were the original antiques. As far as I'm concerned springs are up there with pads and valves as automatic replacements when a long retired instrument is reconditioned so mine are always fairly new. Again most of mine were fitted by Mike A (who sets up a mean action in my opinion). They are brass wire, like most concertina springs I think, and they give me no trouble, although I do have a couple of spares about if needed. I think 2 breaking in a short time on a fairly new instrument is reason enough to speak to the maker and ask if he's used a bad batch of wire and would care to replace the rest too!

 

One thought though; if they are steel they might rust at spots if you've been playing at the beach or whatever and that would be enough to cause a fatigue point. Not a problem with brass, which is perhaps why it is so common.

 

 

I did put them back (there were three on each Button) but took them out again because I prefered the increase in overall volume. This is on a very low action EC used for fast and loud playing in a band or Session.

 

I do agree though that the Set-Up of the keyboard is vitally important and I take great pains to make adjustments that suit me... With my Duet I am finding slightly different criteria for all this and take your point.

 

A "Work-Hardenable" material such as Brass is better suited to the achievement correct "Touch" of the Keys and the better constant force of the spring throughout its arc of movement. When one compresses a Steel Safety pin the force needed greatly increases towards the point of closure...

[Dirge]

 

 

there were three on each Button...

that's just greedy.

[Geoff Wooff]

 

 

there were three on each Button...

that's just greedy.

 

 

I know Dirge, that is just me all over; Selfish, Greedy, too many Concertinas.. hmm maybe I should amend that last bit to "nearly enough Concertinas" !

Edited September 13, 2011 by Geoff Wooff

[Geoff Wooff]

Regarding my point earlier about work hardening and difficulty of changing a Right-hand spring to a Lefty;

 

I have just made a quick experiment with one of the very hard new springs that don't like being "Handed". I was Annealing a sheet of Nickel silver prior to rolling it into a tube for the set of pipes I am currently making and it occured to me "why not try Annealing the very end of one of those Concertina springs". Well I did and it worked perfectly. The trick is to heat the end with a small flame quickly and when it is a dull red colour quickly quench it in cool water (not freezing cool). This could be done with a Cigarette lighter or maybe even a Match flame but quick is the order of the day here.. not to let the rest of the spring get too hot or you end up with a Butter soft piece of bent wire.

The very end was now so soft I could turn it with my fingers but the rest of the spring still 'springs'. Silly me I should of thought of that before now!

Edited September 13, 2011 by Geoff Wooff

[Peter Laban]

the set of pipes I am currently making

 

[Geoff Wooff]

the set of pipes I am currently making

 

 

 

YES YES indeed Peter! Yours is coming along nicely but this is the one before which yes should be finnished but you know me. I still expect to finnish yours before Christmas .

[Dan A]

Sorry, I made a bit of a typo there - the two spring breaks were on different buttons. Only the more recent was the G/A; the other was the E/D, second finger right hand middle row, a button a use a lot and where I could easily imagine regular fatigue taking its toll. Thanks for the spring-making tips, guys! I think I'll start on that particular skill-set now.

 

I am indeed quite far away from John Connor (one ocean away, precisely), and as far as I know he still doesn't have online contact information. But maybe I'll send him a nice post letter to ask about the issue

 

Thanks again, everyone!

 

--Dan

[JimLucas]

I still expect to finnish yours before Christmas .

So you're making Finnish pipes, rather than Irish pipes?

[Theo]

I still expect to finnish yours before Christmas .

So you're making Finnish pipes, rather than Irish pipes?

 

Since we are now into "clever" replies I'll just answer the original question exactly:

 

How many times do springs break? Only once, then you fit a new one.

[Geoff Wooff]

I still expect to finnish yours before Christmas .

So you're making Finnish pipes, rather than Irish pipes?

 

Oh yes ! It's all in the finnish. What Springs to mind is that although I use French polish it is a product I have not found here in France. However if I do not Finnish by Christmas the Chech will not arrive, we will go Hungry and things will get quite Chile and in the Wake of it there will be no Turkey.