Song v Tune

[michael sam wild]

In case any flames need to be fanned even higher, English players tend to understand that pub sessions can be "song" or "music" sessions or a sprinkling of both if the folks fancy.....its just the way it is!

 

In our local folk mag sessions are described that way and people may or may not turn up because of the words used. So round here that is the way it's understood by traddies or folkies.

 

All the comments have been most informative . Thanks John for your interesting web page on 'Song'

 

I've just been listening to a tape of Whale songs and agree that they know what it's about.

 

What is the most complex information as opposed to emotion that a 'tune' can communicate in human terms.

 

A drum , bugle or a shout or a whistle e.g. come here! A scream or howl?? Maybe we communicated by tunes long before we invented words and garmmar from meaningful sounds.

 

When I worked in West Africa the marimba was said to be ancestors speaking

 

 

And does the word lyrics come from a lyre siging to us

Edited December 17, 2010 by michael sam wild

[RatFace]

So are Mendelssohn's famous "Songs without words" really just tunes and he wasn't a proper musician?

[Kelteglow]

HiAll Perhaps the confusion comes from " Bird Song" .No Lyrics unless you are a parrot.Bob

[cboody]

In case any flames need to be fanned even higher, English players tend to understand that pub sessions can be "song" or "music" sessions or a sprinkling of both if the folks fancy.....its just the way it is!

 

Love it! So songs are not music... Well I've heard some singers...

[Paul Read]

And then there are all those people who call concrete cement!@

[Theo]

And of course the people who refer to notation on paper as "music"

Edited December 18, 2010 by Theo

[JimLucas]

And, I agree with those who have found that the folks who usually confuse the two are most often those without much experience in the trad world.

You agree, but I don't.

So there's another difference, based on personal experience.

In fact, I believe my first encounter with the usage of "song" to mean "tune" (no words, no voice) was among the Irish session contingent here on concertina.net.

[michael sam wild]

Just checked on 'lyrical' it is a song or tale accompanied by the lyre , so accompaniment has a long history.

[cboody]

View Postcboody, on 16 December 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

And, I agree with those who have found that the folks who usually confuse the two are most often those without much experience in the trad world.

 

You agree, but I don't.

So there's another difference, based on personal experience.

 

In fact, I believe my first encounter with the usage of "song" to mean "tune" (no words, no voice) was among the Irish session contingent here on concertina.net.

 

Take the issue to thesession and see what they say. Or, check previous discussions of it over there. I'm not saying they'll agree with me, only that it would be interesting to know and I'm not going to take the time to do it. After all, there's nothing wrong with differing opinions.

[cboody]

So are Mendelssohn's famous "Songs without words" really just tunes and he wasn't a proper musician?

 

 

Mendelssohn is using the term in relation to the term "Lied." If memory serves Mendelssohn's title was "Lieder ohne Wörter" (if my German is still in place). Not the same as song in our discussion at all. So, I guess your "reducto ad absurdum" argument doesn't work.

[Rod]

So are Mendelssohn's famous "Songs without words" really just tunes and he wasn't a proper musician?

 

 

Mendelssohn is using the term in relation to the term "Lied." If memory serves Mendelssohn's title was "Lieder ohne Wörter" (if my German is still in place). Not the same as song in our discussion at all. So, I guess your "reducto ad absurdum" argument doesn't work.

 

Or perhaps Mendessohn was inviting others to provide suitable 'words' to accompany his 'tunes' ? Perhaps he was 'lost for words'.

[michael sam wild]

Some great tunes get lost in lousy words and vice versa. if you get words, tune and singer right that's the ultimate for me.

[JimLucas]

Take the issue to thesession and see what they say.

No, thanks.

Or, check previous discussions of it over there.

Still no.

Like you, I'm "not going to take the time to do it."

 

I'm not saying they'll agree with me....

Based on past peeks at their discussions, I think there's a high probability that some would agree with you, some would disagree, and some would even try to take the discussion off on an unrelated tangent.

 

After all, there's nothing wrong with differing opinions.

My point exactly.

And experiences can also differ... which is often a reason behind differing opinions.

[JimLucas]

So, I guess your "reducto ad absurdum" argument doesn't work.

No?

Seems absurd enough to me.

[Kautilya]

I'm confused too. No words, no song?

 

So this would be a sune:

It's in Russian. The subtitles don't help.

 

And this would be a tong:

It's in English

 

I've used the terms interchangeably and nobody notices.

 

Thanks

Leo

Not a sune surely - just that he could not read the title/remember the words but he knew the toon!

 

Do it all the time myself and had exactly that problem when I forgot to take word-sheets to hand out for variety of xmas toons I was playing at a party t'other night. Never heard so much humming and haahing in my life and people declaiming "I know how the toon goes can't recall the words....

[RAc]

And of course the people who refer to notation on paper as "music"

 

even though that distracts from the original issue at hand, I feel compelled to put in a remark here:

 

I suggest reading "Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain" by Oliver Sacks. Fascinating book. One of the things I got out of it is the fact that music mostly happens, indeed, within the brain - Sacks states numerous examples of people who perceive music solely inside their heads without the music really "happening." An example that many of us can relate to (even though the experience doesn't exactly qualify as "music" unfortunately) is tinnitus, yet Sacks' elaborations make it very credible that within some, the music that their brains "sell" them as real as true music being playes externally can become arbitrarily complex and, well, musical.

 

One of the examples he states is that of an individual who was so musically trained that he was indeed able to translate written out music directly into sound upon reading. When we consider that association is at the heart of music and as we perceive it, it sounds very credible and logical to me that music can very well be triggered by visual renditions of music in whatever form. Sacks also explains the reverse process, namely, individuals possessing perfect pitch for whom each sound they hear gets translated into the visual image of a color right away (or in some, a distinct odor).

 

So, I don't see any problem in calling sheet music "music" per se. I myself am a musical layman at best, and I personally can relate to music mostly if I indeed *hear* it, but that doesn't mean that there are no other ways to perceive music.

[Kautilya]

The old use of the word song refers to music coming out of a mouth or beak.

 

 

My flageolet has a beak!

[RatFace]

And of course the people who refer to notation on paper as "music"

 

Is this any different to the way people refer to squiggles on paper as "words"?

 

Or even, for that matter, to the way people use strange vocal sounds, like "cat", to refer to actual objects such as "cats"?