Song v Tune

[Anglo-Irishman]

And of course the people who refer to notation on paper as "music"

 

Is this any different to the way people refer to squiggles on paper as "words"?

 

No.

 

We've got the "one-note samba" to match the "four-letter word". Both rather obscene ...

 

Or even, for that matter, to the way people use strange vocal sounds, like "cat", to refer to actual objects such as "cats"?

 

Yes.

 

Phonemes (the stange vocal sounds you mention) are the direct interface to external objects like cats - and so are instances of oganised sound. Writing and notation are their respective meta-levels, and have no direct connection with the external objects.

 

Cheers,

John

 

Cheers,

John

[RatFace]

Phonemes (the stange vocal sounds you mention) are the direct interface to external objects like cats - and so are instances of oganised sound. Writing and notation are their respective meta-levels, and have no direct connection with the external objects.

 

Actually... I'm not convinced that is true for music - because it depends what is meant by music. Colour isn't a property of the physical world, it's a property of one's perception of the real world. Perhaps some people (me?) consider music in the same way - a computer (or human composer) can generate all sorts of sounds, but I only call it (what I experience in my head) music if I perceive it as music.

 

If that is the case, then written/notated representations of music can have as close a relationship with "real music" as acoustic representations: both representations stimulate what I call music in my head.

Edited December 20, 2010 by RatFace

[RatFace]

So are Mendelssohn's famous "Songs without words" really just tunes and he wasn't a proper musician?

 

 

Mendelssohn is using the term in relation to the term "Lied." If memory serves Mendelssohn's title was "Lieder ohne Wörter" (if my German is still in place). Not the same as song in our discussion at all. So, I guess your "reducto ad absurdum" argument doesn't work.

 

It is true that Lied can have a very specific meaning - an "art" song for voice and piano. However, it also has a common everyday meaning as "song" - I confirmed with a tame German native that it could be used to describe, for example, a song sung (with voice) in a pub, but not a diddly-diddly tune. So, either Mendelssohn used a nonsensical title "Songs for voice and piano without voice" (in which case he wouldn't be a _proper_ musician), or else he was using song/Lied in a colloquial/iTunes sense (in which case he wouldn't be a proper _musician_).