B/c Concertina

[tony]

Has anyone considered making a B/C (or even a B/C/C#) concertina and would such an instrument be a good (or a bad) idea?

 

Thanks

[Ken_Coles]

Has anyone considered making a B/C (or even a B/C/C#) concertina and would such an instrument be a good (or a bad) idea?

 

Thanks

 

This is an old idea that comes up every few years. I remember in the early days of ebay someone auctioned a 3-row early Suttner Anglo in B/C/G. There are other variations, but I don't recall the details. I guess in the already-crowded field of concertina fingering systems, this one didn't/hasn't become widespread so far (so many fingering systems, so little time!). Others can comment on how this layout might work in practice.

 

Ken

[Chris Timson]

I presume you mean an anglo. Some has at some time, in all likelihood, but I have never encountered one. I would imagine it would have a reduced resale value. As to advantages, I dunno. I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be playable. It would need someone who did play one (and preferably a C/G or G/D) to answer that one. You'd certainly lose the synergies between the two rows on a conventional anglo, but there may be new synergies. I suspect you would not be able to generalise from a B/C melodeon to a B/C anglo, any more than you can generalise from a D/G melodeon to a G/D anglo.

 

If you do it - let us know how you do ...

 

Chris

[m3838]

I have been contemplating this for awhile.

Your simple adaptation of C/C#, or B/C etc. just won't work on concertina with strapped wrist. You lose ability to play chords and fingering patterns are unplayable on Concertina, you'll need free hand.

However, if you shift your second row in the distance of two buttons - most of the finger tangling will be successfully solved, but at the expence of the range.

I'm talking about 20 button, as there is no reason to make C/G/G# or the like.

But in the end I did successfully change the layout of G row to make 20 button concertina fully chromatic, maintaining eccential reversals. I still have it but don't play, and still have the chart somewhere.

I even have a sound file with Bach's menuet, played on it.

[ragtimer]

Has anyone considered making a B/C (or even a B/C/C#) concertina and would such an instrument be a good (or a bad) idea?

 

Thanks

Well, the advantage is obvious -- the sharp or flat of any given diatonic note is right where you expect it to be. Like a chromatic harmonica, where pushing the lever sharpens any note. Or liek a B/C button accordion, exactly.

 

The disadvantage would be that you mostly can't choose between a push or pull version of a diatonic note. These are very handy on a C/G or G/D, for playing a phrase entirely on push or pull without breaking it up for bellows reversal -- and conversely, for forcing a bellows reversal for phrasing effects or when you're runnign out of bellows travel in the current direction.

 

Disclaimer: My Anglo experience is limited to trying to force a tune or two out of a C/F Club button accordion and some harmonica playing as a kid. --Mike K.

[Anglo-Irishman]

I remember in the early days of ebay someone auctioned a 3-row early Suttner Anglo in B/C/G.

 

Ken,

 

The B/C/G arrangement is not really new. The central button field of the Bandoneon is three diatonic rows in G/A/E, which is just a transposition of B/C/G.

The benefit is that you've got 3 "home keys", and the outer row being a whole tone above the middle row helps a lot in getting scale passages on press-only or draw-only.

 

Cheers,

John

 

Sorry, senior moment again!

 

The Bandoneon's G/A/E is a transposition of Bb/C/G (not of B/C/G).

 

A 20-botton Bb/C could work. With the whole-tone interval between the rows, the are different synergies than between rows a fifth apart, but they are there. I must play around with the A and G rows of my Bandoneon - if I get any enlightenment, I'll let you know!

J.

Edited March 2, 2008 by Anglo-Irishman

[Michael Reid]

See this thread: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1671

 

where we discussed the late Jim Coogan's D/C# concertina.

[RatFace]

Sounds like a good case for trying with a midi concertina!

Edited March 4, 2008 by RatFace

[Chris Timson]

 

Ooh, how unkind! Poor, poor Aeola!

 

Chris

[Dirge]

So why isn't it a rolling Edeophone and thus true-to-life?

[RatFace]

So why isn't it a rolling Edeophone and thus true-to-life?

 

I do in fact roll my tenor-treble Aeola to people if they're out of reach and want to play it - though only over reasonable clean carpet. I last did it on Tuesday - possibly twice. Much less likely to get dropped that way....

[Dirge]

Do it enough and it'll end up looking like an edeophone anyway.

[Frank Edgley]

I think I can see why these (B/C) concertinas are not made. With the accordion, the melody is played with one hand (the right hand) only---the left hand being left free to play the bass buttons. If this were the setup on a concertina it would be a waste of the use of one hand, unless the instrument were to be set up with bass chord buttons on the left (Why not then play an accordion?). The accordion is also set up differently. The buttons on a button accordion are very low, larger and set up so that it is easier to slip from one row to the other. The strap on the accordion is longer and allows the hand motion necessary to move easily from row to row. Also, if you have watched a god player on the button accordion, the hand moves up and down the keyboard in order to reach the necessary notes, again possible because of the long strap. If you think about the button setup on a button accordion, there are many more buttons in a row than on an anglo, so the longer strap arrangement makes sense. But you could not have that many buttons in a row with a concertina. You're more or less stuck with 5 or 6 buttons to a row per side. So you would have to either make the instrument longer (which would make it an accordion), or shift the melody notes to both hands in order to accomodate enough buttons on a row. If this were the setup, you would have the same problems inferred above---relative difficulty slipping easily between rows for sequences of notes due to the different strap set up, and button design. No, I think the strength of the anglo is the fact that much of the cross row fingering is between hands, not skipping back and forth between rows with the same finger. If a B/C concertina was such a good idea, it would probably have been made long ago. The thread which mentions Jim Coogan's Suttner-made concertina (of similar design) as being unplayable probably confirms this assertion.

[Theo]

You're more or less stuck with 5 or 6 buttons to a row per side. So you would have to either make the instrument longer (which would make it an accordion), or shift the melody notes to both hands

 

All the 'melody buttons are on one side on this one, but still not B/C

Edited March 14, 2008 by Theo

[Lawrence Reeves]

I had heard of a B/C or ( chromatic) concertina a few years ago. A fellow from England was working for Bernunzio Vintage Instruments in New York state about 12 years ago. He was very versed in vintage string gear, but also knew vintage concertinas. He had an old 20 key Lachenal with this B/C setup and played a few tunes over the phone for me. I can't even begin imagining playing one in this system after playing a C/G anglo. On the other side of things, after playing an anglo in C / G I doubt I could play a D/G in actual keys. I would play my tunes as if C/G, or ( standard) making them all over the place if with others.

[m3838]

I agree generally with Frank, but I noticed some points I disagree with:

The buttons on a button accordion are very low, larger and set up so that it is easier to slip from one row to the other.

Not necessarily true, buttons are varied in size and set up. My little "Schveizerorgele has very small, concertina-like domed buttons, and sounds very much like concertina.

The strap on the accordion is longer and allows the hand motion necessary to move easily from row to row.

Trebble side of accordion doesn't usually have any straps. The straps have been used on older instruments, but were generally abandoned for lack of function.

there are many more buttons in a row than on an anglo,

So you would have to either make the instrument longer (which would make it an accordion),

Accordions aren't necessarily longer than concertinas, or larger.

I think the strength of the anglo is the fact that much of the cross row fingering is between hands,

You are probably talking about particular style of playing for particular style of music, as is generally accepted by hordes of wanna-be's. Alternating between sides is problematic when you use left hand accompaniment, and by no means Irish or any other music shouldn't be played like that.

If a B/C concertina was such a good idea, it would probably have been made long ago.

I agree with that, but with a caveat: paraphrazing you, we can say, "if another notation system was such a good idea, it would be made long ago".

Yes, there are other notation systems, and there are other concertina ideas, but the mainstream has it's virtues.

I made a B/C-ish concertina, only in my case it was C/G#-ish. Special attention was devoted to two issues:

keeping as many reversals as possible (4 per side, E, Bb, F#, and another one, can't make it up right now)

and making sure as many chords are available. I was able to make multy-key 20 button Anglo by some very simple tweaking and shifting reeds around. Anybody can play it as usual in the diatonic keys of C and G, adding needed key of D by playing it on C row (unchanged) and grabbing F#, and C# from the former G row. Playing in F is "easy", as Bb's have reversals.

Simple B/C will NOT work on concertinal. It WILL work marginally if you shift one of the rows two buttons up or down. (it will untangle the fingers and allow cross row fingering to alternate between hands.

But my system is by far better and easier to learn than any B/C, even with shifted rows.

However, 22 button Concertina is even better, as it allows usual C/G cross row fingering, chords, uncompromized range, logic - all in only two home keys. But why would anybody want more?

The only problem is that 20 button brass reeded Lachenal can be had for $300-400 and set of extra reeds, pretuned - for another $100. A new 22 button from, say, Frank Edgeley, will run above $1000.

With 30 button Rochelle all above experiments were rendered obsolete, untill the time when China will actually succede to either kill the West entirely, or raise it's living standards and bring Rochelle's cost up to Morse.

[Frank Edgley]

To Lawrence: Most people, including myself, play concertinas other than C/G instruments in the manner you describe. I believe that few people play them "in actual keys" but use them as a transposing instrument---sort of like the way people use whistles---by switching whistles to play in different keys. This is the way I, also, use my G/D. However, concertinas are a bit more expensive. You often see whistle players with a bagful of whistles---not so much with concertinas.

 

To M3838:

Not to be argumentative, but merely to clarify some of my points, I will expand a bit relative to your good points.

(My post)The buttons on a button accordion are very low, larger and set up so that it is easier to slip from one row to the other.

 

(M3838)Not necessarily true, buttons are varied in size and set up. My little "Schveizerorgele has very small, concertina-like domed buttons, and sounds very much like concertina.

 

(Response) I can't comment here, about your Schveizerorgele, as I am not familiar with you instrument. However, I will state that the majority of button accordions have buttons similar to my description.

 

(My post)The strap on the accordion is longer and allows the hand motion necessary to move easily from row to row.

 

(M3838)Trebble side of accordion doesn't usually have any straps. The straps have been used on older instruments, but were generally abandoned for lack of function.

 

Response: Perhaps I am missing something, or we are not talking about the same thing. Usually, at least with the Irish button accordion players I have see, but there is generally some means of holding the right side of the instrument--either a strap of a loop for the thumb--- i could be wrong. However, even if there is nothing under which the right hand is placed, that in itself would make the right hand even freer to move up and down the keyboard.

 

(My post)there are many more buttons in a row than on an anglo,

So you would have to either make the instrument longer (which would make it an accordion),

 

(M3838)Accordions aren't necessarily longer than concertinas, or larger.

 

Response: Yes, there are certainly small accordions, but the vast number of them are not those cute small ones that I have personally and privately been lusting after (until saninty and good judment is restored in my brain). They are usually larger than a concertina if they hope to have a comparable range.

 

(My post) I think the strength of the anglo is the fact that much of the cross row fingering is between hands,

 

(M3838)Alternating between sides is problematic when you use left hand accompaniment, and by no means Irish or any other music shouldn't be played like that.

 

(Response) I'm not sure I understand your point, here. Could you clarify?

[Stephen Chambers]

(My post)The buttons on a button accordion are very low, larger and set up so that it is easier to slip from one row to the other.

 

(M3838)Not necessarily true, buttons are varied in size and set up. My little "Schveizerorgele has very small, concertina-like domed buttons, and sounds very much like concertina.

 

(Response) I can't comment here, about your Schveizerorgele, as I am not familiar with you instrument. However, I will state that the majority of button accordions have buttons similar to my description.

It may not apply to all button accordions, but it is true for those intended for playing Irish music, where the playing of rolls especially demands easy and rapid slipping between rows. The Schwyzerörgeli, and its style of playing, is a very different kettle of fish.

 

(My post)The strap on the accordion is longer and allows the hand motion necessary to move easily from row to row.

 

(M3838)Trebble side of accordion doesn't usually have any straps. The straps have been used on older instruments, but were generally abandoned for lack of function.

 

Response: Perhaps I am missing something, or we are not talking about the same thing. Usually, at least with the Irish button accordion players I have see, but there is generally some means of holding the right side of the instrument--either a strap of a loop for the thumb--- i could be wrong. However, even if there is nothing under which the right hand is placed, that in itself would make the right hand even freer to move up and down the keyboard.

In Ireland it is usual to play with a long shoulder strap and no thumb loop, but swivelling thumb loops were commonly used by the old-style Irish-American D/C# players - usually on accordions by Baldoni Bartoli or Walters. Indeed my 1930s single-row Baldoni still has its thumb loop and I use it, whilst my 1940s two-row O'Byrne de Witt grey Paolo Soprani originally had one, but it has been removed (I have a weakness for those old-style Irish-American accordions).

 

Otherwise, there's a previous thread about semitone-tuned concertinas here: C/c# Layout Of 20 Button Anglo, Pros and contras?, and I seem to remember the Chicago button accordion/concertina player John Williams telling me that he was experimenting with a C#/C/G Anglo, though I don't know how he got on with it, or if he's still using it.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Stephen Chambers