Timbecile Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Hi Everyone! I know Miking has been done to death, but I couldn't find any suggestions on my particular situation. so here's the skinny: I just started playing in October. I Play in a rock and roll band My tiny little concertina has to keep up with distorted Marshalls + a drummer who beats his drums more than he plays them. I purchased a pair of tie clip style electret microphones and attached them to the wrist straps of my concertina with the mics pointing in. As would be expected, when I cranked the mics up (through my marshall on the clean channel) loud enough to be heard, we all got an earful of feedback. If I stood in exactly the right place, I usually could avoid the feedback, but I'm not one to stand still on stage. So here are my questions... Anyone have any experience with this? Is there better mike placement that I can use to eliminate or reduce the feedback issue? Has anyone tried any piezo (contact) pickups like they use for acoustic guitars? If those just work on vibrations, it seems to be that they should work fine on a concertina I've heard people have had success with internal miking, but at the levels I need, I don't know if that will work. Would one of those headset style mics that you see Britney Spears and her ilk using work better? I know these are a lot of questions, but I really need to solve this problem...we've got our first show coming up soon so we really wanna sound good. Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 I would question whether a concertina is really a suitable instrument for this sort of treatment. Good luck all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 I don't know why a concertina would be any less suitable for this than any other instrument...but I don't have a ready answer to the question either. Best discussion I've seen is here. I would question whether a concertina is really a suitable instrument for this sort of treatment. Good luck all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marien Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 + a drummer who beats his drums more than he plays them. Take another drummer or leave the band... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 You can do a great deal to eliminate feedback by using a graphic equaliser to pull down the specific frequencies that are howling. I've had good experience with the behringer shark. This uses dsp technology to perform one of a number of functions including feedback destroyer. It automatically detects and removes up to (I think) 12 feedback frequencies. It will have some effect on the sound quality of the concertina, but from your description of the band I doubt that would be a serious issue. In your situation it would connect between your concertina and the input into the mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence Reeves Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 The two common ways you are getting feedback are as follows. 1) The monitors are playing back into the microphones. 2) You are trying to turn up the gain of the mics beyond the limitations of the system. You might explore an electret condenser type of microphone. They use a supplemental power ( either a battery, or phantom power off of the mixer). It increases clean gain, and helps with the dynamics of the instrument. A few I have tried and like are Audio Technica ATM 350, and AKG C 419l. They are not inexpensive, but lightweight and good sounding for live sound. Another choice is a DPA lightweight( I think 4035). Excellent, but much pricier than the others mentioned. If you are using the instrument while seated, I would and do use two mics on short stands. A shock mount on the mic helps to overcome noise and vibration transfered up from the stage. + a drummer who beats his drums more than he plays them. Take another drummer or leave the band... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david fabre Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Rock'n'roll with concertina, wow ! Please post videos or sound files, I'm curious to hear this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbecile Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 Thanks for all the replies... I picked up a unidirectional headset mic from radioshack today. Gonna try it out at practice tonight. I'm hoping that switching from omnidirectional to unidirectional will help reduce the feedback issues. I'm also going to try running through the PA instead of my guitar amp...I'm a little reluctant because I hate depending on in-house sound engineers here's a link to the group's myspace... http://www.myspace.com/dirtyfilthymugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david fabre Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 here's a link to the group's myspace...http://www.myspace.com/dirtyfilthymugs Rock'n'roll will never die... Good luck to you ! What concertina are you playing ? I guess Hohner or some of this kind ? I'm surprised to see "baroque music" in your influences... I'm also surprised not to see "the Pogues". I've not a huge culture in punk music but this is really what your music reminds me the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Thanks for all the replies... I picked up a unidirectional headset mic from radioshack today. Gonna try it out at practice tonight. I'm hoping that switching from omnidirectional to unidirectional will help reduce the feedback issues. I'm also going to try running through the PA instead of my guitar amp...I'm a little reluctant because I hate depending on in-house sound engineers here's a link to the group's myspace... http://www.myspace.com/dirtyfilthymugs Excellent stuff, yes very Pogues, even down to a Shane McGowan sound-alike lead. Brilliant Timbecile, perhaps YOU will be the man who takes the concertina back into the public view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyn Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 (edited) Hi Everyone! I know Miking has been done to death, but I couldn't find any suggestions on my particular situation. so here's the skinny: I just started playing in October. I Play in a rock and roll band My tiny little concertina has to keep up with distorted Marshalls + a drummer who beats his drums more than he plays them. I purchased a pair of tie clip style electret microphones and attached them to the wrist straps of my concertina with the mics pointing in. As would be expected, when I cranked the mics up (through my marshall on the clean channel) loud enough to be heard, we all got an earful of feedback. If I stood in exactly the right place, I usually could avoid the feedback, but I'm not one to stand still on stage. So here are my questions... Anyone have any experience with this? Is there better mike placement that I can use to eliminate or reduce the feedback issue? Has anyone tried any piezo (contact) pickups like they use for acoustic guitars? If those just work on vibrations, it seems to be that they should work fine on a concertina I've heard people have had success with internal miking, but at the levels I need, I don't know if that will work. Would one of those headset style mics that you see Britney Spears and her ilk using work better? I know these are a lot of questions, but I really need to solve this problem...we've got our first show coming up soon so we really wanna sound good. Thanks!! As a rock guitarist as well as a concertina player I would say that the Marshall amp is totally incompatible with the tie clip microphones, particularly if it's valve. In my opinion it would be much better plugging the mics. into the PA system. Failing this you would get better results from an acoustic amp. Regarding the different types of microphones you could try Microvox which are ok but can be prone to feedback at high levels. Or my personal favourites at the moment from JTS http://www.jts.com.tw/_english/02_products...D=19&ID=119. They make a range of mics with different types of clips and mounting plates for attaching them to the instrument. These are suitable for concertina or melodeon/accordion and are very similar to the AKG range in appearance and quality but are much cheaper. Martyn Edited December 31, 2008 by martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbecile Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 Excellent stuff, yes very Pogues, even down to a Shane McGowan sound-alike lead. Brilliant Timbecile, perhaps YOU will be the man who takes the concertina back into the public view. Rock'n'roll will never die... Good luck to you !What concertina are you playing ? I guess Hohner or some of this kind ? I'm surprised to see "baroque music" in your influences... I'm also surprised not to see "the Pogues". I've not a huge culture in punk music but this is really what your music reminds me the best. Thanks for the props, guys! As far as the Pogues go, I'm not sure why we didn't put them in there. Me and the other guitar player are huge fans of Shane McGowan. As for the Concertina, I'm playing a Hohner D-20 at the moment. (was a gift from the guitarist), but I plan to upgrade to the Rochelle as soon as I can. As a rock guitarist as well as a concertina player I would say that the Marshall amp is totally incompatible with the tie clip microphones, particularly if it's valve. In my opinion it would be much better plugging the mics. into the PA system. Failing this you would get better results from an acoustic amp. Regarding the different types of microphones you could try Microvox which are ok but can be prone to feedback at high levels. Or my personal favourites at the moment from JTS http://www.jts.com.tw/_english/02_products...D=19&ID=119. They make a range of mics with different types of clips and mounting plates for attaching them to the instrument. These are suitable for concertina or melodeon/accordion and are very similar to the AKG range in appearance and quality but are much cheaper. Martyn Thanks for the advice Martyn. I'm actually playing through a Marshall MG (solid state). I'll check out the JTS mics. I picked up a cheapie unidirectional headset mic from Radio Shack today that's worked great this afternoon-no feedback. We'll see at practice tonight how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbecile Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 Great news! using a pair of $20 radio shack headset mics worked!...I had my marshall up full blast with zero feedback. woohoo! What I'm not as excited about are the two tiny cords and the miniature batteries they come with. If there's any electrical engineers that can help me wire up a better power supply for them they would be perfect! (hint hint ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooves Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) Great news! using a pair of $20 radio shack headset mics worked!...I had my marshall up full blast with zero feedback. woohoo! What I'm not as excited about are the two tiny cords and the miniature batteries they come with. If there's any electrical engineers that can help me wire up a better power supply for them they would be perfect! (hint hint ) I'm going to guess that the Radio Shack mics are electret condensers (ECM). Online you can find many circuits listed for electret condenser mics, in fact, I had considered purchasing some ECM mics (just the the actaul mic module) and wiring up my own system since the avaiable sysems are a bit pricey. The ECM modules themselves are often as cheap as $1 each, up to a whopping $20+ per module for "High End" ECMs. I did a quick search and found this page: http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/microphone_powering.html which has a small article on powering ECM microphones. You should be able to run as many as you want from the same power supply, considering voltage and current. If you have parallel connections to the battery, the voltage across each will be the same, though current will not. ECM's don't need a lot of current (or voltage) which is why they can be run from very small batteries. Current drop is done with a resistor to keep the ECM from being overpowered. Maplin, Digikey, and many other companies sell a variety of ECM modules. wait, I thought Whiskey was the devil? Edited January 9, 2009 by Hooves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbecile Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Great news! using a pair of $20 radio shack headset mics worked!...I had my marshall up full blast with zero feedback. woohoo! What I'm not as excited about are the two tiny cords and the miniature batteries they come with. If there's any electrical engineers that can help me wire up a better power supply for them they would be perfect! (hint hint ) I'm going to guess that the Radio Shack mics are electret condensers (ECM). Online you can find many circuits listed for electret condenser mics, in fact, I had considered purchasing some ECM mics (just the the actaul mic module) and wiring up my own system since the avaiable sysems are a bit pricey. The ECM modules themselves are often as cheap as $1 each, up to a whopping $20+ per module for "High End" ECMs. I did a quick search and found this page: http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/microphone_powering.html which has a small article on powering ECM microphones. You should be able to run as many as you want from the same power supply, considering voltage and current. If you have parallel connections to the battery, the voltage across each will be the same, though current will not. ECM's don't need a lot of current (or voltage) which is why they can be run from very small batteries. Current drop is done with a resistor to keep the ECM from being overpowered. Maplin, Digikey, and many other companies sell a variety of ECM modules. wait, I thought Whiskey was the devil? Whiskey's only the devil the next day Funny that you responded today. I actually found a full kit for an electret pre-amp. Electret Amp Kit. it works off a 9 Volt batter, which should give me longer life (and cheaper cost) than the button kind. I put it together last night and it works great! instead of soldering the mic straight to the board, I added a pair of 1/8 input jacks, and connected the speaker to a 1/4" instrument jack to plug into my amp. I also added a power switch/volume knob combo...I thought this whole thing would be beyond me, but it was a piece of cake! ...now I gotta find a belt-mountable case to put it in.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooves Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Whiskey's only the devil the next day Funny that you responded today. I actually found a full kit for an electret pre-amp. Electret Amp Kit. it works off a 9 Volt batter, which should give me longer life (and cheaper cost) than the button kind. I put it together last night and it works great! instead of soldering the mic straight to the board, I added a pair of 1/8 input jacks, and connected the speaker to a 1/4" instrument jack to plug into my amp. I also added a power switch/volume knob combo...I thought this whole thing would be beyond me, but it was a piece of cake! ...now I gotta find a belt-mountable case to put it in.. I don't know if you have a Fry's electronics nearby, but I have seen many small aluminum and plastic cases at Fry's in the electronics section which migth work for you. You should post a clip of the sound recorded from your homebuilt mics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbecile Posted January 14, 2009 Author Share Posted January 14, 2009 hmm..forgot about fry's...I do have one close. I ended up buying Remote Control cases from Polycase. I liked them because they have a battery case built into the box so I don't have to take it apart when I want to change a battery. I'll definitely post soundclips and pictures when it's all finally assembled. Right now I'm playing with adding a "tone knob". The instructions recommended experimenting with bridging some parts of the circuit for different effects...like usual, one of my projects is getting out of hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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