In Tune?

[Susanne]

Now I have confidence enough to bring my concertina to jams and such, but someone said it was a bit flat, which I hadn't noticed, since it always seems to be in tune with our fiddles and such when we tune them to the Intellitouch tuner. Anyway, last week I took it to the Irish session and it actually sounded a bit out of tune to the other instruments.

 

I'm not sure if the fiddlers on the Bälinge event just simply tuned their fiddles to my concertina or if it just is more noticable when you play with many instruments.

Daniel (my husband) said that accordions normally are a little bit out of tune and that they at his session in ireland used to tune all other instruments to the accordions.

 

What do you say? Should i get my concertina tuned before i take it to jams? Is it normal for a concertina not being tuned 440?? What are your experiences? When i read about new concertinas they often write in the specifications that it's tuned a=440.

[Mark Evans]

Might be the way they've tuned up or their sense of intonation. As you discribe other fiddlers being in tune with you after using a tuner, I suggest borrowing one of their tuners and set the question to rest.

[Stephen Chambers]

Is it normal for a concertina not being tuned 440??

It would be perfectly normal for an old concertina not to be in modern concert pitch. The commonest pitch in England during the 19th century was "Old Philharmonic", which may be as high as A=456 (half a semitone sharp). Otherwise, "Continental Pitch" (aka "Paris Opera Pitch") A=435 (slightly flat) was sometimes employed (especially for vocal performances), or "New Philharmonic Pitch" A=439 (very slightly flat) was introduced in 1896.

 

When i read about new concertinas they often write in the specifications that it's tuned a=440.

That has been the International Concert Pitch since only 1939.

[Paul Read]

I once heard a bodhran player in a band comment (during an extremely long period of retuning on stage) that Irish bands can spend half the night tuning their instruments and the rest of the night playing out of tune If that's the case, why worry?

[Jody Kruskal]

Unfortunately, the A=440 international standard is not so standard these days, a lamentable development. Pianos are regularly tuned 2 to twenty cents sharp. It makes them sound nice and bright. Since most instruments can tune to them, it's not a problem. Not so with free reeds. I've heard reports that they are also being made sharp in places. Just rumors, and I wonder if they are true.

 

The timbre of a piano is very forgiving when it comes to pitch. Not so with concertinas.

 

Since you have an electronic tuner, check your concertina, note by note at moderate volume. (Check the calibration of the tuner to be sure that the tuner is tuned to A=440 first). Free reeds change pitch a little bit depending on how loud you play. You might be out of tune with yourself from note to note. If your readings are not consistently high or low then you are in tune.

 

You might want to write down your readings because they will not all be the same. Every note is it’s own little quirky instrument. You want to look at the average of your readings and the spread or range of your readings. The closer the average is to 440 the better, the narrower the spread the better.

 

Or... just politely ask everyone to tune to you, give them a few notes, smile, and forget about it.

[Chris Timson]

Not so with free reeds. I've heard reports that they are also being made sharp in places. Just rumors, and I wonder if they are true.

Well, I'm not going mention names, but I know for a certainty (because he told me) of one melodeon maker who tunes up to make them stand out. I agree, I think concert pitch is under threat and I don't much like it.

 

Chris

[cnrobinson]

One curious thing that I have found over the years is that my concertina sounds wrong if I play with another instrument that is out of tune! I have checked it on many occasions with electronic tuners and tuning forks and it is spot on, yet if I play with a fiddle or flute (both tunable) that are slightly sharp or flat it is always my 'tina that sounds out of tune, not them. How do you explain that?

 

Chris

[Mark Evans]

One curious thing that I have found over the years is that my concertina sounds wrong if I play with another instrument that is out of tune! I have checked it on many occasions with electronic tuners and tuning forks and it is spot on, yet if I play with a fiddle or flute (both tunable) that are slightly sharp or flat it is always my 'tina that sounds out of tune, not them. How do you explain that?

 

Chris

 

Their ears. I've knocked about with a number of fiddlers all to varying degrees of success...that is until I played a fiber arts festival on November 11th. A very nice fellow with a lovely very old fiddle asked to join me as I played a solo set of Irish tunes before Terry and I got back to old time. Man, this cat was spot on! He stayed with us through our old time set. Cadilac time baby! I've had him over to the house. I hope to eventually record with him and will share the results here. His name is John Garrison a refugee from NYC.

 

Fiddlers can play in tune and when it happens, it's enough to give you religion!

[Jody Kruskal]

One curious thing that I have found over the years is that my concertina sounds wrong if I play with another instrument that is out of tune! I have checked it on many occasions with electronic tuners and tuning forks and it is spot on, yet if I play with a fiddle or flute (both tunable) that are slightly sharp or flat it is always my 'tina that sounds out of tune, not them. How do you explain that?

 

Chris

 

Yeah Mark, in tune music sounds... how do you say it?... in tune. How profound is that?

 

Chris,

 

I've experienced the same thing. In my band, I try to get everyone to tune to me, without the piano playing, otherwise they tend to tune sharp. I explain it this way. Everyone wants to sound good. The sound or timbre of the concertina is very unforgiving when it comes to pitch. It's really what it is, unequivocally, no fuzziness about pitch. The piano and the fiddle are both kind of fuzzy in this regard. I think there are lots more harmonics messing up the sound wave in a string instrument and that the sound wave of a free reed is a purer simpler shape. Perhaps that is why so many free reeds have several banks of reeds tuned slightly differently to make a wet sound in order to make the pure sound less pure and so more pleasing and string like.

 

Anyway, if the fiddle tunes and plays in tune with me it sounds great, but if it is sharp of me, then I sound flat, even though I’m right on, just as you say. The wave shape of the string is more active and compelling and the ear goes to it as the reference. It’s a sad fact of life for free reed players that you just have to take into account.

[Bob Tedrow]

Ha,

 

Once the Chieftains came to town. As usual they invite some local players to sit in for a tune. I schmoozed my way into the fray.

 

Before the set, Paddy tells us how his pipes are tuned. He looks us over and says, "that shouldn't be a problem....except for you" indicating me.

 

 

I played anyway, it was fun. I wish I had my Ukulele with me.

Edited December 9, 2006 by Bob Tedrow

[m3838]

Ha,

 

Once the Chieftains came to town. As usual they invite some local players to sit in for a tune. I schmoozed my way into the fray.

 

Before the set, Paddy tells us how his pipes are tuned. He looks us over and says, "that shouldn't be a problem....except for you" indicating me.

 

 

I played anyway, it was fun. I wish I had my Ukulele with me.

 

Speaking of which, you used to have some sound clips of you on ukulele.

But everything seems to be removed. Do you still have those clips? Would be interesting to hear. Why not put them back on your website? Together with banjo.

[Dana Johnson]

One curious thing that I have found over the years is that my concertina sounds wrong if I play with another instrument that is out of tune! I have checked it on many occasions with electronic tuners and tuning forks and it is spot on, yet if I play with a fiddle or flute (both tunable) that are slightly sharp or flat it is always my 'tina that sounds out of tune, not them. How do you explain that?

 

Chris

Being both a concertina player and fiddle player, I long ago noticed that as a fiddle player I tended to adjust all my intervals to be essentially in tune with themselves. nice beat free harmonies. It is natural to gravitate in that direction, it just sounds better. When I started playing concertina a lot, I got used to the equal temperament. I found it made going back to the fiddle quite difficult. The fingering I was used to no longer sounded "right" even though it sounded "in tune". Now when I play the fiddle, I simply adjust to whatever other instruments are playing. I have no problem playing with my wife's concertina of my friends flutes or button accordions. No frets means I can tune to them and it sounds fine. I wouldn't want to do it from a cold start though, but after a couple of seconds I have it sussed out.

 

Flutes are a variable pich instrument. They vary with temperature, and lip position, and players are always compensating. Flutes with their relatively pure sound are also intolerant of any out of tune intervals since they beat strongly and obviously with them (unlike a fiddle with it's rich overtone coloring that tends to hide slight variations as tone color ). Concertinas being stuck where they are in equal temperament for the most part will always be at odds with the flute players desire to avoid other than perfect harmony. The trick there is to keep buying them another pint until they no longer care.

 

Just practice enough so they all want to play with you more than you do with them and they will come around.

Dana

[Bob Tedrow]

ask and ye shall receive more than you will want.

 

Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy

 

http://hmi.homewood.net/sounds/sugar.wav

 

Diga Diga Do

http://hmi.homewood.net/sounds/diga1.wav

 

 

Stars and Stripes and Noodling

 

http://hmi.homewood.net/sounds/ukulele.ra

 

 

Ha,

 

Once the Chieftains came to town. As usual they invite some local players to sit in for a tune. I schmoozed my way into the fray.

 

Before the set, Paddy tells us how his pipes are tuned. He looks us over and says, "that shouldn't be a problem....except for you" indicating me.

 

 

I played anyway, it was fun. I wish I had my Ukulele with me.

 

Speaking of which, you used to have some sound clips of you on ukulele.

But everything seems to be removed. Do you still have those clips? Would be interesting to hear. Why not put them back on your website? Together with banjo.

[Dan Worrall]

Being both a concertina player and fiddle player, I long ago noticed that as a fiddle player I tended to adjust all my intervals to be essentially in tune with themselves. nice beat free harmonies. It is natural to gravitate in that direction, it just sounds better. When I started playing concertina a lot, I got used to the equal temperament. I found it made going back to the fiddle quite difficult. The fingering I was used to no longer sounded "right" even though it sounded "in tune". Now when I play the fiddle, I simply adjust to whatever other instruments are playing. I have no problem playing with my wife's concertina of my friends flutes or button accordions. No frets means I can tune to them and it sounds fine. I wouldn't want to do it from a cold start though, but after a couple of seconds I have it sussed out.

 

Flutes are a variable pich instrument. They vary with temperature, and lip position, and players are always compensating. Flutes with their relatively pure sound are also intolerant of any out of tune intervals since they beat strongly and obviously with them (unlike a fiddle with it's rich overtone coloring that tends to hide slight variations as tone color ). Concertinas being stuck where they are in equal temperament for the most part will always be at odds with the flute players desire to avoid other than perfect harmony. The trick there is to keep buying them another pint until they no longer care.

 

Just practice enough so they all want to play with you more than you do with them and they will come around.

Dana

 

Dana,

Very interesting indeed, and it matches with what I've read and heard elsewhere...why would a fiddle or a flute player, all other things being equal, want their instrument to sound out of tune with itself? What they approach in adjusting pitch in that manner is close to a 'just' tuning. Chris Allert once showed me, offline from the Forum, that almost all of the thirds and fifths of the commonly played chords in the keys of C and G are either beatless or nearly so in a 'just' tuning based in G on a CG instrument. Which begs the question...why do we keep playing in equal temperament when it sounds out of tune both with itself and with our main other musicians? When you cannot beat them, another approach might be to join them, especially if you chord a lot.

Of course, the big weakness in a 'just' approach is that keys other than C and G will not sound very good on that instrument....but then you could always buy another anglo or two to cure that, as most long-time anglo players will eventually do anyway for other reasons. Then of course there is the problem that guitars are stuck in equal temperament as well...but they are best dispensed with anyway!

This is not an approach an Irish style player might fancy, but if playing in a harmonic style it has some benefits. I shall now run for cover, as I'm sure everyone will shudder at the thought of yet another 'temperament' thread.

[McIsog]

Bob you Rock! Even with a Ukulele.

[m3838]

To Bob.

Second file s simply stunning!

I'm impressed.

Keep throwing some more at times. Refreshing.

Thanks.

[Susanne]

Do you mean that I should be happy with my flat concertina and that the others should tune their instruments to my concertina?

 

Seems like I sounded good to the accordions and melodeons this summer. Maybe they were flat too?

[Mark Evans]

Do you mean that I should be happy with my flat concertina and that the others should tune their instruments to my concertina?

 

Seems like I sounded good to the accordions and melodeons this summer. Maybe they were flat too?

 

Yes!

Sharp or flat is not really the issue. If you want to play with other folks and your instrument is a set pitch situation, hey...that's the way it is (what ya' gonna do?). Don't worry about it. Folks with adjustable pitch instruments and the sensitivity to accomodate you without prompting will do so. If not, there is another agenda going on and it has nothing to do with you. Best to leave them to their territorial marking behavior, down a pint and set sail for a more comfortable harbor.

Edited December 10, 2006 by Mark Evans