Tuning A Single Note

[jlfinkels]

I have an interesting problem with my 20-button Lachenal G/D. It's been playing beautifully for the 6 months I've had it, but I picked it up today and noticed that the right side G draw (3rd button on the D row) is now sounding flat. It was fine last night, but today, blech.

 

Is there some simple thing I can do to help get it back in tune? I've never taken it apart and am not particularly mechanically adept, but I'm sure I can do something basic if I need to.

 

-jeff

Edited August 26, 2006 by jlfinkels

[m3838]

right side G draw (3rd button on the D row) is now sounding flat. It was fine last night, but today, blech.

 

Is there some simple thing I can do

 

-jeff

 

Unscrew the 6 screws with a flat screwdriver, but try not to push in too hard. And not apply too much force. If the screws will not go at once, keep the pressure and wait. Eventially they will start moving (sometimes with squeaking).

Unscrew the top metal bolts, holding the leather straps and free the straps' ends

 

Take off the top part of the end (do not lift the end plate with button holes, rather take off the whole thing with buttons). It will reveal the reed pan. If the G sounds flat on the draw, it means it is located on the outside of the reedpan, facing you. Locate the reed by pressing the "flat" button and noticing, which pad opens the hole. The reed right under that hole is the one you need.

 

Grab this reed (assembly) with two fingers (say, index on top, where the two screws are, and thumb - at the bottom) and pull. You'll have to pull pretty hard sometimes, because it might be jammed, if not moved for a long time (100 years?).

 

So you pulled out a reed shoe with the flat reed.

 

2 options:

 

1 - you can put a thin razor blade (or any thin metal sheen) under the reed and polish the tip of it with the

nail file. Cheap, easy and works well. Polish a little, and then put it back in concertina, close the ends (don't tighten the screws, just hold it with your hands tightly). Check the tuning against the other G, on the push.

They must be the same. Or with an octave lower G, on the pull. Must sound like one note, but thicker, with no vibrations. No? Then take it back out and polish some more.

 

2 - send the reed to Concertina Spares, or to whoever sold it to you and ask for a replacement. If the reed is going flat, it often means it has developed a crack, and is dying. Time for a new one.

Edited August 26, 2006 by m3838

[jlfinkels]

Thanks very much for that clear, concise explanation and steps. I've taken the top end off and pulled out the reed frame, but haven't developed the courage to actually take a nail file to it as yet. My eyes aren't what they used to be and I don't want to risk damaging the reed given the age and minute tolerances. Maybe someday.

 

Of course, I may just chicken out and see if a professional can do the actual work.

 

-jeff

[Bob Tedrow]

I have an interesting problem with my 20-button Lachenal G/D. It's been playing beautifully for the 6 months I've had it, but I picked it up today and noticed that the right side G draw (3rd button on the D row) is now sounding flat. It was fine last night, but today, blech.

 

-jeff

 

Before you apply an invasive technigue like filing or polishing, just take the offending reed out, put it back in the reedpan, reassemble the concertina and have another listen to the offending reed.

 

Check to be sure the reed is snug in the reedpand and that the checkvalve is working properly.

 

 

Bob

[Dana Johnson]

If it was fine last night and flat today, Don't try to re tune it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that kind of pitch change is almost always due to a reed shoe that is a tiny bit loose in the slot, or the reed has gotten off center. What Bob said for the first plan of taking the reed shoe out and putting it firmly back and listening again is the plan. If for some reason the slot has just gotten too loose to hold the reed shoe snugly, try a thin paper shim about the same length as the reed shoe and the thickness of the shoe in width and slip it in along the side of the dovetail slot and reinsert the shoe . The paper will take up the slack and the reed shoe will be tight again.

 

More rarely, a reed will get off center in the shoe window and if it comes very close to one side, will play flat from the start. if it is a little less close, it will start out in pitch at low volume levels but play flater as he pressure is raised. if this is the case, you can slip the razor blade between the reed and the side of the window about a third of the way from the tip of the reed to gently pry it sideways ever so slightly.( for aluminum shoes, I prefer to do this from the back side of the reed to reduce the danger of damaging the upper edge of the reed window.) it is extreemly easy to overdo this. I do most of my reed centering under a microscope, because I find methods like holding the reed up to a light only good for making sure the reed is not touching, but not good enough for centering. A good hand lens will do instead, but the microscope is easier for a whole concertina full of reeds.

This scenario is much less likely than some variant of the first one. Might just be a weather change finally getting to the reed. The concertina might just have been bumped, jarring the shoe loose.

 

The last thing I can think of for an overnight flattening of the pitch is an incipient crack. Hopefully it isnt that, but even then , broken reeds can be replaced.

 

The kind of detuning that needs material removal is slow to develop unless the material is a blob of something that managed to folow the air stream onto the reed. Things like tar build up from playing in smoky bars takes time, rust does too. Overnight, it is something else.

 

A careful novice with good instruction can retune a concertina, but avoid it if you at all can. It is very easy to ruin a reed in an instant, especially a small one.

Dana Johnson

Kensington Concertinas

[m3838]

I agree with Dana on most points, except advice against tuning, and except his opinion about overnight flattening.

A crack is not developing over a long time. Metal fatique does. A crack develops almost in instant. Flattening can happen overnight, or over an hour, or during performance. I had to replace 3 reeds on C/G 20 button Lachenal. Some reed went flat over 15 minutes period.

A tuning of a single voice, push/pull 20 button concertina is an easy and rewarding process. The advice to stay away from it is good, if there are available professional tuners nearby and extra cash. In real situation tuning the reed can take 30 minutes, sending the instrument through damaging air travel oversees takes 2 weeks at least.

English Concertina with more reeds is more difficult, but not a big deal either, given the single voice nature of the instrument.

Now multy-voice accordions is entirely different story, you have to be aware of the beats, change the degree of wentess throught the range etc.

[jlfinkels]

Thanks to everyone for the great advice. I've decided against trying to tune the reed myself, largely due to my lack of mechanical skills and poor eyesight. I'm going to send it to a professional and have it done right. This is a great instrument and I plan to play it for a long time.

 

I'm very fortunate to have Bob Tedrow about 2 hours away and already owning one of his instruments I'm well acquainted with his skills. I'd rather wait for him to have time to get around to working on it than messing it up myself and having a large repair bill.

 

Thanks again.

 

-jeff

[Dave Prebble]

I agree with Dana on most points, except advice against tuning, and except his opinion about overnight flattening.

A crack is not developing over a long time. Metal fatique does. A crack develops almost in instant. Flattening can happen overnight, or over an hour, or during performance. I had to replace 3 reeds on C/G 20 button Lachenal. Some reed went flat over 15 minutes period.

A tuning of a single voice, push/pull 20 button concertina is an easy and rewarding process. The advice to stay away from it is good, if there are available professional tuners nearby and extra cash. In real situation tuning the reed can take 30 minutes, sending the instrument through damaging air travel oversees takes 2 weeks at least.

English Concertina with more reeds is more difficult, but not a big deal either, given the single voice nature of the instrument.

Now multy-voice accordions is entirely different story, you have to be aware of the beats, change the degree of wentess throught the range etc.

 

 

Sorry m3838 but Dana is correct in all he said.

 

Any significant change in tuning that does not occur over a long period of time is due to either mechanical change such as reed seating or a displaced valve or is due reed tongue failure very often invisible to the naked eye.

 

Cracking can be an abrupt event ie playing normally then ...Snap!.

More usual in my experience is a reed that starts to develop a microscopic crack that, over the course of anything from a few minutes to a few days, will extend and steadily flatten the note.

Out of curiosity, I have tracked the progress of such a crack (visible with a Jewellers loupe) over the course of an evening's playing till it finally failed.

 

I would suggest that a common cause of such cracking is slipshod amateur tuning leading to scoring across the tongue or localised thinning which causes a weak point and stress concentration.

 

I am not against folks having a go at tuning but I do all too often see the results - often significantly and irreversibly reducing the potential of an instrument.

For anyone seeking to 'try their hand' I would suggest getting hold of an old accordion , stripping out all the reeds and try tuning them half of them sharp and half flat in multiple stages of say 30 cents. Aim for accuracy in the results at all times and inspect the reeds closely after each tuning. If you keep doing this, almost to destruction of the tongue, you will have learned more about file control, setting a good reed profile realligning reeds and avoiding damage to the tongue, than you will ever learn by just reading posts here.

Allow a lot of time for this excercise as there are an awful lot of reeds in an accordion and it is surprising just how much you can change the pitch of a reed!

 

It is easy to tune a concertina - but requires a lot of practice to do it well and to maximise the potential of an instrument.

 

Given his eyesight and his clear uncertainty as to the cause, Jeff decision to send it off for repair is a wise one.

 

All the best with your box Jeff and please remember to resurrect this thread and report back what the problem was, once Bob Tedrow has sorted it out.

 

Regards to all

 

Dave

[d.elliott]

Dana, Dave

 

both of you- well said,

 

If you are confident in your skills, and you orgainise yourself properly, with the right kit and a tuning standard, then you can adjust reed tuning at home on the dining table.

 

However, I was shown how to tune by John Willis, and my first attempts were on reeds that I could scrap off if I wanted to.

 

I do not say that reed tuning is the preserve of the professional, I have spent years trying to de-mistify concertinas, but I do say: do your homework, go into it eyes wide open and remember the 7 'P' s

 

Proper Planning Prevents Panic & P*ss Poor Performance

 

I also second (or third) the view that you cannot tune away the effect of micro-cracking and ensuing fatigue failure

 

Dave

[JimLucas]

I have an interesting problem with my 20-button Lachenal G/D. It's been playing beautifully for the 6 months I've had it, but I picked it up today and noticed that the right side G draw (3rd button on the D row) is now sounding flat. It was fine last night, but today, blech.

Jeff, how flat is it? If it's only a small change, I wonder whether it might not just be a bit of trapped dust or grime causing just enough friction to slow the reed a bit. That could certainly account for the suddenness of the change, and if that's the problem, then one should definitely not try to file the reed.

 

In fact, I can't think of any good reason to try retuning the reed. Either the cause is reversible without retuning (dust, misalignment, ...) or else retuning will be only a temporary and futile "fix" (cracked reed).

 

Bob, of course, will know what to do when he sees it.

[m3838]

I had C/g Lachenal from Chris Algar. Three reeds had to be replaced, because they suddently statred flattening. I tried to fix them, with success, but after few minutes of playing they were going flat again. So I realized they have cracked. All were replaced by Chris and I have no problem since.

So you are right, it's either dust/valve/setting, or it's gone. So filing is not necessary.

On accordion practice I must say: if you said to an infant: "don't use your legs to learn to walk", how does it sound to you?

You've got your instrument. It's to stick with, learn on, tune, fix. Expencive? - too bad. Just be careful.

On the other hand, those who have nothing else to do, plenty of time, extra cash (for those throw away accordions) - go ahead and approach it from afar. I'll guarantee you, your results will not be any better or achieved any faster, just perhabs with less damage to expencive reeds.

 

Reeds in antique concertina are easily replaceable and damaged reed doesn't ruin the instrument.

[stevejay]

You can use a lady's personal fan which costs about $1.00 and fit a small fine grinding wheel to it. It is better than scraping with a file. Brush at a 45 degree angle to the reed, easy does it. This is what I do to tune the reeds, fire away of you feel its incorrect.

 

I hold the ends close to prevent leakage and test the pitch (by ear) without installing the screws. This has worked for me, and accordion type concertina reeds are easier than harmonica reeds.

 

I am self taught in more ways than one, so I will admit these are my experiences, NOT my advice

[m3838]

You can use a lady's personal fan which costs about $1.00 and fit a small fine grinding wheel to it. It is better than scraping with a file. Brush at a 45 degree angle to the reed, easy does it. This is what I do to tune the reeds, fire away of you feel its incorrect.

 

I hold the ends close to prevent leakage and test the pitch (by ear) without installing the screws. This has worked for me, and accordion type concertina reeds are easier than harmonica reeds.

 

I am self taught in more ways than one, so I will admit these are my experiences, NOT my advice

 

What is "lady's personal fan"?

Do you mean those small electric fans?

[Dave Prebble]

You can use a lady's personal fan which costs about $1.00 and fit a small fine grinding wheel to it. It is better than scraping with a file. Brush at a 45 degree angle to the reed, easy does it. This is what I do to tune the reeds, fire away of you feel its incorrect.

 

I hold the ends close to prevent leakage and test the pitch (by ear) without installing the screws. This has worked for me, and accordion type concertina reeds are easier than harmonica reeds.

 

I am self taught in more ways than one, so I will admit these are my experiences, NOT my advice

 

Hi Steve,

 

Personally I strictly reserve this type of tuning for piano accordions and, being a little more confident in achieving my 'desired outcome', I prefer to use a ten inch 2200W angle grinder

 

Seriously though, this 'Dremel' idea does seem to have come from the accordion world, I suspect via the squeezebox newsgroup, where it remains a subject of extremely heated, unpleasant and personaly abusive argument. It seems to me that a large majority of accordion repairers remain very strongly against the practice.

It has been discussed here in the past (in a far more gentlemanly manner, I might add) but I rather think it pre-dates the new (well, 3 years old) format forum and if so the thread is probably inaccessible to us.

 

I have never used this method on concertina reeds as I consider that proper use of appropriate files achieves all the objectives of reed profiling and tuning. I am sure that, for speed alone, grinding has been used in the past (and probably is today) but only for 'roughing out' ie initial profiling of bulk reed stock, and then only in a strictly controlled and accurate mechanised production process.

So far as I am aware though, in all but 'toy instruments' final profiling and tuning has always done by hand with the file.

 

Changing the pitch of a reed is easy - remove metal from anywhere near the tip to raise the pitch or anywhere near the root to lower it.

 

'Tuning' as opposed to 'changing the pitch' however, requires that this be carried out in a controlled and correct manner ie :-

 

* Removing metal in the right areas avoiding overthinning particularly at the tip, which controls reed starting or response and towards the root of the reed where the greatest flexure and stress occurs.

* Preventing the formation of a convex or tapered reed cross section by level and consistent filing, thus avoiding the reed twisting when it sounds.

*Maintaining a smooth progression from thinner to thicker areas of the reed ie ensuring a correct smooth reed profile.

* Avoiding localised grooves, steps, scratches and the like which not only cause the reed to oscillate in a different way (to the detriment of sound quality) but will also reduce the life of the reed due to stress concentration.

 

I would freely accept that through lack of skill or practice, it is possible to inadvertantly create any or all of the above faults by either filing or rotary grinding but generations of makers and tuners have found by practice that skilful, careful and patient application of a top quality smooth grade file cannot be bettered.

The Dremel and it's like have been around for many years now and if there were any advantage to be gained, rest assured, todays makers would use it extensively for finishing and tuning - they do not !

 

From your post Steve, I am heartened that you appear to be adopting the right cautious approach to the job by patiently using a very low powered tool and by lightly stroking the reed to grade in changes in profile and I suspect that you are able to work within the above parameters and thus should able to achieve good results.

 

I still think that you would be better with a file. You seem to have an open mind, so if you intend to be doing much tuning work, or wish to tune instruments down from old pitch, I would ask you to consider my previous suggestion (see above - 19th Aug) of undertaking some serious file practice on 'sacrificial reeds'. Even better if you can get someone with experience to guide you along the way.

Despite all my joking, I do not hate accordions ! ( I blame the players )

In the UK at least, there are any number of mass produced low quality 1930s/40s instruments, usually hopelessly out of tune and way, way beyond economic repair. Accordion technology and quality has changed a great deal since these were made and there is virtually no market for them now. Try a wanted ad in the local paper and, if my experience is anything to go by, the phone will ring off the hook.

 

We are all individuals and each have different strengths and weaknesses.

For example, some can draw naturally, some can learn to draw given tuition and time and some will never be able to create anything recognisable even after years of great personal effort under the best tuition but will excel at some other activity.

It is not uncommon to find that excessive self confidence (denial?) and the strong will to succeed often leads folks in the last category to view their work as being perfect.

The same range of abilities hold true when considering the open-mindedness, aptitude, patience, good ear, good eye and steady hand required to acquire and constantly improve on the skills necessary for tuning a concertina well - be it by Dremel or file.

 

Perhaps for many folks the most readily available weapon likely to be wielded would be the little used birthday present from 5 years ago, namely the Dremel (or similar) multi-tool sitting in dust on the garage shelf. These are far more powerful than the 'ladies fan' mentioned above and are too unwieldy for the fine work required. With such a tool it is difficult to keep really accurate control over the pressure applied, whilst maintaining the bit in a level plane and at the same time moving the grinder along the reed to create a smooth profile. Unrectifiable mistakes happen way too fast and you cannot glue the filings back on. It takes but a second of inattention to 'dig in' with the grinder and create a 'U' shaped depression which would affect the character of the reed forever and is most likely irrepairable.

 

On a different subject -

Holding the ends tight to the instrument to test sound the reed in the box is quite usual

practice but just one word of caution here, make sure your fingernails are trimmed and the fingers grip along the top edge of the bellows end frame and not down in the bellows fold. I made this mistake once and put a finger right through a somewhat ancient gusset. Replacing a gusset is a fiddly task indeed and, touch wood, I have never repeated the error.

 

Well, I certainly did not intend to go on at this length when I started this reply, but I do hope it will be of some interest and use to you.

 

Regards and ' happy filing '

 

Dave

 

edit - copied from text file so line spacing all over the place

Edited September 4, 2006 by Dave Prebble

[stevejay]

Hi Dave,

 

I don't know if I would be so invasive with an expensive instrument. I wouldn't hesitate to tune a reed on my Bastari. I visually inspect the reed with a magnifier before the "ladies personal fan" (weapon of reed destruction) comes out. I only had to do this twice, on the unisons where the slight difference was irritating my ear a little. It worked, but I know it is a haphazard method, and could easily junk the reed if too much preassure was applied.

 

The point is, I wouldn't send a Bastari away to be serviced, I just don't think the instrument has enough value to warrant this, although right now it sounds surprizingly good for relatively the low quality of construction.

[Dave Prebble]

Hi Dave,

 

I don't know if I would be so invasive with an expensive instrument. I wouldn't hesitate to tune a reed on my Bastari. I visually inspect the reed with a magnifier before the "ladies personal fan" (weapon of reed destruction) comes out. I only had to do this twice, on the unisons where the slight difference was irritating my ear a little. It worked, but I know it is a haphazard method, and could easily junk the reed if too much preassure was applied.

 

The point is, I wouldn't send a Bastari away to be serviced, I just don't think the instrument has enough value to warrant this, although right now it sounds surprizingly good for relatively the low quality of construction.

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

Perfectly valid point and in the circumstances your careful attention will keep it playing and hopefully this will, one happy day lead on to upgrading.

 

If you do ever decide to go further with tuning or repairing another concertina, I would be only too glad to offer any advice or help where I can.

 

Regards

 

Dave

[Theo]

I agree with everything dDave has to say about the preference of files over power tuning for reed work. Its worth adding that you need a top quality file in good condition.

[d.elliott]

I have tried different ways of filing or abrading reeds, my objects have been:

 

-a balence between speed and control

 

-a balence between final surface finish and the need to maintain of a true rectangular cross section with top and bottom surfaces parallel along the reed's length.

 

-a minimum of stress/ de-stress distortion

 

I have tried the small dremel power tool fitted fine model engineers grinding point. Used like a pencil grinder

 

I don't use, or recommend that others use, this technique, even on some of the very hard wheatstone reeds which are tempered to straw.

 

Why??

 

1. the grinding is too local and there is a good chance of a non-uniform crossection being formed

 

2. the wheel scan skip and bug*er the reed, particularly on small 'top end' reeds

 

3. there is a good chance of stress-raisers being formed from some of the deeper scores -potentially reducing fatigue life

 

4. on brass and some of the very soft Lachenel steel reeds the wheel glazed and caused heating

 

5. the stresses induced/ released cause more distortion of the reed than any other technique that I have tried

 

6. To control the point I found that I was gripping so tightly and holding myself so stiffly that my shoulders knotted up, and I got finger cramps.

 

I really tried to make this grinding idea work over a period of time, I usually ended up doing course grinding adjustments and then final tuning by 'hand'

 

 

I hope that this comment based upon my own experience helps

 

Dave