Why B/F#

[Alex West]

I recently acquired an anglo concertina from around 1880 and although the reeds are stamped as if it's in C & G, it seems to play in B and F#, even accounting for the probability of it being in an old pitch somewhat different from A=440Hz. 

 

It's not the first time I've had a B/F# and I've been told by very reputable sources that it was very common in the 19th century.  Has anyone any idea why B/F# should be so common then?

 

Alex West

[Alan Day]

I think it's almost certainly concertina bands that played Brass Band scores. Or concertina players playing with brass Instruments that are in Bp . I have one and played alongside a trombone player for a number of years.

Al

[Alex West]

1 hour ago, Alan Day said:

I think it's almost certainly concertina bands that played Brass Band scores

Thanks Alan - That would make sense if it was Bb/F - but B/F#?

 

Alex West

[Peter Laban]

Late 19 and early 20th century brass bands used a high pitch A=452.5.

 

I have a bunch of old tin whistles from that period, a lot of term sound about a semi tone sharp, to today's standard, from the pitch indicated on them.

 

So a 'high pitch' Bb/f?

[John, Wexford]

Perhaps it was used to play with a set of C# Uilleann Pipes.

[Alan Day]

Please remember that brass instruments at that time were also in old concert pitch and many a person has been caught out buying antique brass instruments (and concertinas) that were out of tune to the modern ones.

Al

[Alex West]

5 hours ago, Peter Laban said:

Late 19 and early 20th century brass bands used a high pitch A=452.5.

 

3 hours ago, Alan Day said:

...brass instruments at that time were also in old concert pitch...

Peter, Alan - I understand; my BBb tuba made in 1916 had extra lengths of tubing added at a later date in order to make it in tune at A=440Hz. 

 

But I remain confused; a typical concertina at that time would also be in high pitch - so a high pitch trombone in Bb would match a high pitch Bb concertina, whereas a high pitch B concertina would be a semitone sharp?  I've checked and I don't think the concertina I have is a Bb/F in high pitch.  Unless you're saying that people ordered a B/F# concertina in A=440Hz so that it would play harmoniously with a Bb trombone in A=452Hz?

 

Alex West

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Just a thought,

Before and around the the turn of 1900, many Anglo’s, being considerably less costly to purchase than the English, were bought collectively by rural communities to accompany song or dance gatherings.

As, possibly, the only other music that might be heard and sung to, by some communities, may have been that of the local church/chapel organ.  

It is known that the pitch of pipe organs of the period was not very stable e.g. due to temperature etc. , sometimes being considerably lower than the accepted,  and this may have influenced congregations/communities to adjust and establish their singing pitch to match that of their local organ.

Possibly, to meet what could be seen as a ready market, the Bb/F & B/F# was produced to meet that requirement.

Attached, a breakdown of 117 Anglo’s made in the Crabb workshop between Sept 1889 & Dec 1891.

It can be seen how popular the B/F# was.

Crabb Anglos Sep 1889 -Dec 1891 - Copy.docx

[Stephen Chambers]

I have a suggestion on this topic, in that 19th-century English-made concertinas were commonly made half-a-semitone sharp of A-440, whilst German concertinas were commonly half-a-semitone flat of it - so a high-pitch B/F# Anglo would have been playable with a low-pitch German C/G... 🤔

[Kelteglow]

Just a thought 1 I was once told that the common key for male and femail voices in church is Eb same as F# Bob

[David Barnert]

1 hour ago, Kelteglow said:

Just a thought 1 I was once told that the common key for male and femail voices in church is Eb same as F# Bob

 

Eb is enharmonically equivalent to D#, not F#. It is a minor 3rd (actually an augmented 2nd) below F#.

[Kelteglow]

Sorry got the wrong way round .Bob