Whatever Happened To English Music?

[Chris Timson]

but I would like to add a third question:

3. Why is it that the English style (not only Anglo, but in general) is not so very well known outside England?

 

Speaking for myself, it was a very pleasant and positive discovery when I joined a part of the the ECMW last year. And I wondered why I did not know or heard anything about it before. I was a great experience to see and hear all those musicians playing with passion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A fair question, and one that I moved here because I think the emphasis is different from the other two questions.

 

On the Saturday night of the last ECMW we found ourselves in a pub session with some excellent musicians (people like Taz Tarry and Rod Stradling). It was a fiery session; the music was being played with passion and commitment, and it sounded great! Many people in the pub were listening. Eventually, between tunes, a woman from a neighbouring table leaned across and asked where the music came from. "England", we said. "Oh", she said, "Are you sure?". "Yes", we said. "But I thought it came from Ireland", she said. "No, England", we said. "But isn't there some Scottish influence?", she said. "No, England", we said. "Oh", she said, and retired, but we could tell she didn't believe us.

 

The answer to your question, Henk, is that by-and-large the English haven't heard of their own music either. So I would slightly amend the question and ask, "Why have the English so comprehensively forgotten their own music?".

 

I would ask the forbearance of our non-English compatriots on this forum while we all get this off our chests.

 

Chris

Edited July 6, 2005 by Chris Timson

[bigsqueezergeezer]

This is so true with so many of our English traditions, most are at best tolerated, usually ignored, or at worst publicly berated and its participants humiliated. (How many morris dancers out there have, when having disclosed their pastime, been treated to someone grabbing two white tissues and prancing around to the merriment of everyone else in the company?)

 

In most other Countries, their traditions are at least respected, and in some are placed on a pedestal with national pride.

 

I believe it has something to do with our subconcious desire to make amends for our nationalistic excesses in the days of the British Empire.

 

Derek

[brightfield]

This is so true with so many of our English traditions, most are at best tolerated, usually ignored, or at worst publicly berated and its participants humiliated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have just returned from a visit to Brittany and what a delight it was to wander down to the village square in Arradon on Tuesday evening to watch the traditional Breton dance evening - a live band of about 6 people, and a large number of residents, who turned up in their ordinary clothes to dance in circles, pairs etc, to traditional Breton music.

 

The English seem to have bought into the view that you can't produce music without vast amounts of electronic equipment. Because acoustic music doesn't sound like the stuff they hear on the radio and tv, its not proper "music" at all and is "weird".

 

I regret the arts establishment does not support our folk traditions either - it was nice to read on the cover of the Karine Polwart album Faultlines, that is was supported by the Scottish Arts Council. I can't see the English Arts Council supporting a similar venture - correct me if I'm wrong.

[Pete Dickey]

I feel one of the saddest things is the view that seems to have been adopted by the BBC.

 

Although our National Radio broadcaster, it would appear that they consider Folk music in general to be some minor distraction to such an extent that they have it listed together with American Country music on their website as if it is just an addendum to normal music.

 

Whereas other countries take pride in playing their own music, the only English music we seem to hear is on the occasional folk program. The BBC seems to think that "English" music is only that composed by the likes of Vaughan Williams or Elgar etc. and therefore is to be played on Radio 3 as classical. Just try doing a search withn the BBC website for firstly "English music" and then "Irish music".

 

Take a look at "The Session" on the BBC web-pages - all of it Irish music. The BBC are always so keen to play ethnic music so as not to be seen as racist, then why are they not playing English ethnic music? Try emailing them. You'll get an acknowledgement but I'm afraid nothing else when your email is consigned to the recycle bin.

 

If English Folk Music does finally die out then our National Radio broadcaster will have played no small part in it's extinction.

 

(Just doing my "Grumpy Old Man" bit )

Edited July 6, 2005 by Pete Dickey

[Alan Day]

I totally agree with you Pete and as you know we discussed this attitude of the BBC recently in another thread.Also our pub folk singing and sing songs have been completely died out due to the Juke box introduction.

Al Also angry

[Lester Bailey]

It's not my theory but I think it's probably right. Nations who value their folk traditions are nations that have be subjugated at some time in their past. They value their traditions as a way of doing down their oppressors. The English having not been subjugated in recent history seem not to need to celebrate their Englishness and in some manner seem to be embarrassed by it.

 

The increase of Political Correctness also leads to "inclusion" in the media which seems to involve presenting everyone music/literature etc except for that of the English.

 

One more Grumpy Old Man

[Chris Timson]

Just to offer my own grumpy comment. I wasn't at all surprised when Folk Roots changed their name to fRoots, folk being the new f word. Roots music appears to be defined as the indigenous music of anywhere in he world, except England (though to be fair, Radio 3 and Late Junction alone do not subscribe to this view, and English music gets its fair crack of the whip there, which is all I think any of us ask).

 

Chris

[bigsqueezergeezer]

Even the Radio Two folk programme is now "an hour of Folk, roots and accoustic Music"

 

Derek

[Clive Thorne]

It's not my theory but I think it's probably right. Nations who value their folk traditions are nations that have be subjugated at some time in their past. They value their traditions as a way of doing down their oppressors. The English having not been subjugated in recent history seem not to need to celebrate their Englishness and in some manner seem to be embarrassed by it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lester,

 

I was going to submit a post with the same idea myself, but you beat me to it. You also, I suspect, expressed it far more eloquently than I would have done. Thanks.

 

Clive.

[Clive Thorne]

Even the Radio Two folk programme is now "an hour of Folk, roots and accoustic Music"   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And am I right in thinking that Mike Harding (the presenter) now lives in S.Ireland anyway?

 

Clive

[geoffwright]

The two-hour Monday night Folkwaves from Radio Derby (presented by stalwarts Mike Peat and Lester Simpson) are forever bemoaning the lack of interest shown in folk by certain quarters of the BBC.

They also regularly point out how much folk (a fair bit of it traditional) is played on Late Junction on Radio 3, the supposedly highbrow, classical music channel.

The other exception being Michael Brothwells Wednesday evening folk programme from Radio York, which keeps itself very traditiional, and is available on demand.

I regard both as necessary listening and concertinas do feature quite regularly.

What really shows English broadcasting up is the amount of folk played on Radios Scotland and Ireland, and from Eire.

[bigsqueezergeezer]

Unfortunately I don't have a PC at home, so I cannot listen to radio on line, this curtails the amount I can listen to severely, but I will try Radio 3.

 

Derek

 

Edited to say what I don't have!

Edited July 7, 2005 by bigsqueezergeezer

[Theo]

And there is Ali Andersons "Northern Folk" on Sunday at 9pm on BBC Radio Newcastle.

 

But the Northeast of England has always been a bit special, for example the magnificent work done by Alistair and the other great people at Folkworks. Last tuesday was graduation day for the first batch of students in the Traditional Music degree at Newcastle University. The fortnightly session at the Cumberland Arms is largely the creation of those students and their friends. No shortage of mighty English music there. Folkworks youth summer school in Durham is an inspiring experience both for the participants and their families. It is so popular that they have this year had to add a junior version for the youngest. Folkworks are running a project teaching English Concertina in schools across the northeast taught by Emily Ball, many of you will know her, or her father Dave Ball. So in this part of England at least the future of English music, and concertina playing looks quite rosy.

 

Geoff I have to agree with you about the dearth of English music on English radio compared with Scottish and Irish radio. I often listen to Radio Scotland and I'm impressed with how Scots music is there in all sorts of broadcasts, not just the specialist programmes. BTW my two favourite programmes of all time must be Radio 4's Veg Talk, and Radio Scotland's Pipelines for the sheer exuberant enthusiasm of their presenters, for the ulikeliest of topics.

 

Theo

[Clive Thorne]

Theo,

 

I'm with you: Veg Talk is brilliant.

 

Clive

[Roger Digby]

Chris Timson rightly split this discussion from the original thread, but there is an inevitable overlap and I shall shortly address Al Day’s point (in the parallel subject) about the effect of war.

Before I do, however, it is well worth noting that the tradition has continued and still thrives with many young participants in a number of areas. Dartmoor, Bampton are obvious examples, as well as the carols around Sheffield and the step-dancing in Suffolk. The general point is, however, true; English music is scarcely known (like Welsh, where in addition to the factors I will discuss below there was deliberate oppression by the church).

As we stare at the long list of names on the War memorials (and there is only one village in this country which doesn’t have one) we can only imagine how many of those men who died between 1914 -1918 were Morris Dancers, Mummers, Handbell Ringers and so on, not to mention those whose traditional expertise was not musical. Any knowledge which relied on transmission from one generation to the next was going to be devastated by such loss - and remember the equally destructive ‘flu epidemic that followed. Economic necessity would have replaced the essential services - the village baker, butcher, etc - but no such necessity required the reinstating of the social and recreational activities, and it is easy to understand that the surviving Morris Men, for example, didn’t have the will to recruit new members. Dancing out the following year with a new team would have been as much a reminder of loss as a celebration of continuity.

Thomas Hardy wrote somewhere that you could tell the revival morris from the traditional because the revival was enthusiatic and enjoyed the dancing while the traditional dancers did it because they had to. This is a rough paraphrase, but the gist is there. Perhaps the Great War was just the last straw; Sharp, collecting before the war, had already stated that the singers he was meeting were all in old age and that he was finding the last knockings of traditional song. He was wrong - thankfully - but he was right in describing the dwindling currency.

Into this weakened situation there then came the spread of recorded and broadcast music and new sorts of music reached ears that had previously only heard the music of the tradition and the church. Home-made music ceased to be the only musical entertainment and the place of music in social lives changed direction in a way that was irreversible.

It might be thought that the fact that Sharp and his colleaques were active before the war meant the stable door was bolted in time, but this is to misunderstand completetly the nature of the revival at the beginning of the century and, coincidentally, the song revival of the 60s onwards. The terms ‘working class’ and ‘middle class’ may be over-simplistic, but they are easily understood and will serve. ‘The Revival’ was totally middle class celebrating a culture that was essentially working class. The societies that were formed were middle class, those who attended the lectures of Sharp and Kimber were middle class and so on. Whether your source is the written word (again Hardy comes to mind) or a Saturday night spent in the right Suffolk pub (not an organised session, just a social evening) it is clear that in its true context the music, song and dance might - probably would - occur spontaneously as a result of friends coming together and relaxing. The revival was the absolute opposite. Strangers came together specifically to dance. They danced together and parted still as strangers. Friendships eventually developed among regular attenders at the same venues, but the experience was the black and white negative of the tradition. Hence it didn’t embed itself into people’s lives in the same way and it took its place as a social option alongside a night at the opera, a day at the races, (or an evening at the cinema watching the Marx Brothers).

In addition, except for those dances with specific tunes (e.g. Winster Galop, Dorset Four Hand Reel) the revival introduced tunes from Ireland, Scotland, and America and neglected many English ones. In a parallel way the early song clubs of the 60s were dominated by the copyist repertoires of Baez, Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary and the singer-songwriters like Dylan, Ochs, Lightfoot, Paxton and the native music was seldom heard. Furthermore, those who did know where to find people like Scan Tester, Jack Norris, Walter Bulwer saw no point in introducing them to a revivalist community that had an appalling track record of crass insensitivity when dealing with the real thing. Some examples can highlight this attitude: Pop Maynard was pulled off stage in mid-song by Mr Blank, a folk luminary, to be replaced by another singer who had ‘a more interesting version’ of his song. Harry Cox once said to Bob Davenport, ‘I don’t know what I’ve done to offend Mr Blank (same family incidentally, but a different member). He hasn’t been to see me for years.’ The simple truth was that he had done nothing and the ‘old friend’ having ripped off all of Harry’s songs, saw no point in continuing the relationship. In more recent times Percy Ling and a few friends were having a drink in the Snug at the Butley Oyster. After a while Percy started a song and was immed iately asked to stop singing as he was disturbing the Folk Club in the Saloon Bar!! No wonder the tradition and the revival were mutually exclusive!

And then there’s the media..... but I’ve gone on quite long enough.

It’s a beautiful summer’s day here in Essex and I can hear the Siren song of leather on willow and the gentle whisper of the beer as it passes from cool cellar to waiting glass. Thank Heaven the EFDSS didn’t run CAMRA. We’d be drinking draught tea!

Roger

[Ken_Coles]

What Roger says could describe some American musical traditions in the 20th Century as well (and probably others) if you change a few names and details. But we should stay with English music in this thread and bring that up elsewhere. I just found it striking (as a former radio host/producer myself).

[bigsqueezergeezer]

Roger, that was a delight to read and a very well stated case. I agreed with all you said and was ready to slit my wrists when I realised that EFDSS doesn't run CAMRA!

 

Derek

[Ivan Viehoff]

What happened to "English Magic" is that it changed, due to internal social changes and external social influences. English Magic is still here and it is extraordinarily popular the world around. Ask a foreigner what is English Magic and they very quickly name the Beatles, Elton John, and more modern practioners that Lord Justice Cocklecarrot is unaware of. And they may be envious of or indignant at English influence on the global music scene.

 

Meanwhile a small number of us preserve older forms of English Magic, and create our own magic fusing those forms with more modern influences.

 

In the 19th century, the main internal social change was the move from country to town, whereby people lost touch with the traditional rural structures of music making and met urban ones; and a major external social influence was German, whereby anything that couldn't have been written by Mendelssohn was deemed to be in error. Thus we lost the modal pattern of English Magic. As commented before, this happened even more strongly in Wales. Mendelssohnian influence, perhaps originally a more general German influence (Handel, Haydn, the royal family), was spread by church (Wesley etc), by education ("magic theory" as she is taught is a recipe book for writing Mendelssohn), by urban magic-making activities such as the "choral society", the magic hall - which was magic also in a germanic harmonic idiom and which also became the language of recreational magic in pub and parlour - and Savoy Opera, etc. To the extent that "magic hall" retained or recreated "traditional" songs, it formed them into the Germanic harmonic idiom, hence most people's impression of English trad is things like "The Ash Grove" and "The Lincolnshire Poacher", written in diatonic keys.

 

More recently "English Magic" accepted American influences, etc, and social change has continued apace, and we ended up with the Beatles etc. Whilst I am also inclined to make the complaint that "world magic" is anyone's folk magic except ours, the reality is that Elton John and Queen is just as much if not more our folk magic than Morris tunes. The difference is that English folk magic has perhaps retained less influence from the English magic of 200 years ago than other countries' magics have retained influences from their pasts.

 

PS. for "magic" read "music" passim. I seem to have been overly influenced by recently completing the 800+ pages of "Jonathan Strange and Mr Norris", which is much concerned with the history and preservation of "English Magic" (sic).